GDT 8/8 BRAVES vs. BREWERS

Why does Whalen have to give us 3 years? If he gives us 2 years, 1 year, or even 1/2 year of effective pitching, it gets us closer to sims, newcomb, etc.
 
Enscheff said:
I guess reading comprehension isn't really your thing. I didn't say he was a hard thrower. I said he threw harder than Whalen does now.

Maddux threw significantly harder (90-94) than Whalen is throwing now, and that was much more impressive 20 years ago. You should have paid more attention during your baseball watching peak. Maddux also had an elite change up, an above average breaking ball, played the best defense on the mound of his generation, and had the best control in the history of the game. Does Whalen posses those traits too? Again, you obviously weren't paying attention.

And your other counter point is Jamie Moyer? That doesn't even warrant a response other than to say that if a career 4.5 FIP is your definition of a "good" pitcher, then you win the argument. Whalen can probably be a 4.5 FIP guy for several years. Oh joy.
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Again, so what's your point? Should we not let Whalen start another game? Are you afraid Whalen is gonna cost us the pennant this year? What's all the bitching about Whalen for?
 
msstate7 said:
Again, so what's your point? Should we not let Whalen start another game? Are you afraid Whalen is gonna cost us the pennant this year? What's all the bitching about Whalen for?
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It's just a grumpy asshole being a grumpy asshole. It's so, so odd for someone to feel the need to talk down to every single person with a slightly differing view. We're not even allowed to feel slightly optimistic about Whalen. We have to announce that he sucks and won't make it, or feel the wrath of the mighty and all-knowing enscheff. it's really bizarre to me. normal people don't act that way to complete strangers on the internet. pre-pubescent 12 year olds on xbox do. you gonna bang our moms too, enscheff?
 
yeezus said:
It's just a grumpy asshole being a grumpy asshole. It's so, so odd for someone to feel the need to talk down to every single person with a slightly differing view. We're not even allowed to feel slightly optimistic about Whalen. We have to announce that he sucks and won't make it, or feel the wrath of the mighty and all-knowing enscheff. it's really bizarre to me. normal people don't act that way to complete strangers on the internet. pre-pubescent 12 year olds on xbox do. you gonna bang our moms too, enscheff?
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It's as if we are a board full of Donald Trumps!
 
Whalen is a guy who will need to hit his spots to be effective. The more consistent he is with that the better he will be. Just like Kris Medlen was. Generally that's hard to do even for major leaguers which is why 'stuff' is important because it allows you to get away with pitches now and again. Whalen doesn't have that so if he misses he will get hit hard. That's not to say we shouldn't give him a shot. I'm for giving anybody a shot right now. But that's pretty much it.
 
So does Whalen throw a 4 seamer or does he only throw a hard sinker. I only seen a few innings of his and he seems to throw a hard sinker for the most part. If that is the case, would that be comparable to another's pitcher 2 seamer?
 
auyushu said:
Well to be fair those were both cases of injuries causing velocity loss and then lack of effectiveness, it wasn't like there were warning signs with sudden velocity loss before that. Both Medlen and Jair were 91ish before injury. And Medlen had come back strong for 2 solid years (2012 and 2013) before the second TJ. But I'd agree in general on low velocity, average K pitch to contact guys being good sell high guys in general.

Thinking Perez would ever be anything other than a back of the rotation guy is obviously kinda crazy, but Whalen actually has solid secondary stuff when he's showing good control. He could make an okay 4th starter type if everything works out based on that. That's most likely his peak upside, but there is some upside there.

Though if Doug Fister can hang around as a decent starter for as long as he can with similar velocity anything is possible. Not a high chance of happening, but it's there.
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Yeah, you can sell every pitcher before he turns 30, but if you do that, you become the Oakland A's and continuously rebuild.
 
Enscheff said:
Yes, there are pitchers that succeed for a short while despite underwhelming stuff. That's why I said "sustained success" and mentioned 3 years. When Medlen was going good I cautioned that the moment he lost even a tick off his stuff his command and "knowing how to pitch" would no longer be enough to make up for it. I was brow beaten endlessly then too by the same brain trust that is harping on me now.

I was a huge proponent of selling high on Medlen. That didn't happen and the Braves extracted almost zero value from him after his one good season. Same with JJ. I hope the Braves will have learned their lesson when it comes time to cash in Teheran in 2-3 years.

Hell, just last year there were folks on this board saying Williams Freaking Perez was a legit option for the 3/4 slot in the rotation because he "just knew how to pitch", and "just gets hitters out". Again, I was lambasted then for saying Perez should not figure into the plans of a contending team. They were wrong then, they are wrong now, yet they still say the same things about all AAAA pitchers that enjoy a hit of early success.
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I don't think we have a problem if you disagree and debate. No one is harping on you because you have a different opinion... People are harping on you because your attitude is of a world class as*hole. It's weird... I always respected your posts and then in the past few months you've just gone off the deep end. Is that you, Trump?
 
Whalen has good strike out numbers at the upper levels. Everything I saw last night indicated that is pretty much the guy he is. Everything he throws moves, and he has what...4 pitches he can mix effectively? That is a good bit to keep hitters off balance ( Kinda like a Paul Byrd) and I'm optimistic he can contribute to this team going forward.
 
KB21 said:
Yeah, you can sell every pitcher before he turns 30, but if you do that, you become the Oakland A's and continuously rebuild.
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As Branch Rickey said it's better to trade someone a year early than a year late. Pitchers, especially those with underwhelming stuff but who seemed to have put it all together, should be at the top of this list. The JJ's and Medlen's of the world. History has shown when these types of pitchers find top level success they generally won't be there for long. There are exceptions of course but we are dealing with probabilities here. Glavine and Maddux are the rarities of these types of pitchers. There is not going to be a pitcher with Maddux's ability to consistently locate in the next 50 years. And by that I mean for year after year for 10+ years. Not someone like Medlen who has a great run for 20 starts.

So yeah if we get a guy who does super well for a year or two like a Medlen or JJ then I would sell high. Instead of waiting for the inevitable and then you get nothing. Notice I didn't mention Hanson because he had top level stuff but injury derailed him. For someone like that I would ride till he hits FA and let him go as he looked like an injury waiting to happen.
 
Tapate50 said:
Whalen has good strike out numbers at the upper levels. Everything I saw last night indicated that is pretty much the guy he is. Everything he throws moves, and he has what...4 pitches he can mix effectively? That is a good bit to keep hitters off balance ( Kinda like a Paul Byrd) and I'm optimistic he can contribute to this team going forward.
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Good comp. Paul was another successful major league pitcher who threw around 88 mph on his four seam fastball with an 81 mph change.
 
And for the time being, people need to remember how valuable pitching was at the deadline. If Whalen somehow manages to hold a 3.5 - 4ERA through the end of the season, that is quite the trade chip for the offseason.
 
KB21 said:
Good comp. Paul was another successful major league pitcher who threw around 88 mph on his four seam fastball with an 81 mph change.
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Maybe that's why Byrd likes Whalen so much. Byrd really bragged on Whalen last night esp his sinker
 
striker42 said:
And if we don't, it's because the game is rigged.
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You know what we're going to do? We're going to do good. We are going to do really good. We are going to hit the ball. Hell, we may be the best in the league with our horrible record. But man, we will make this team great again.
 
msstate7 said:
Again, so what's your point? Should we not let Whalen start another game? Are you afraid Whalen is gonna cost us the pennant this year? What's all the bitching about Whalen for?
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The point is that it's OK to rely on him to be a AAAA spot starter or long man in the BP. It is not OK to pencil him into the rotation and forego improving the pitching staff. This "see what we have" mentality is exactly why the Braves are giving significant playing time to Adonis Garcia. If this line of thinking continues the Braves will continue to be awful.

We do not need to "see what we have" in either Adonis or Whalen. Any semi-competent baseball baseball fan knows what the Braves have in those guys: a couple of AAAA players that can fill out the last spot on the bench or BP.

I state that opinion and no less than 6 posters quote me and jump down my throat with "opinions" based off "facts" about Glavine and Maddux. Of course I'm going to jump right back at them, except my "facts" are actual facts. So call me the asshole all you want, but go back and read the types of responses I get to any post I make and tell me how cordial folks around here are when you disagree with their ignorant homerism.
 
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