Olivera traded for Kemp

Are you guys telling me that we could not get possibly 2 -3 FF type hitters that are only a ~2 years away (similar time lines as JT replacements) if we traded both JT and FF, plus a few solid prospect that are farther out? We are not giving JT and FF away. So replacements don't always have to come from what we have now. plus you have the potential Viz trade if he rebounds.

Freddie Freeman by some metrics has been a top 10 offensive player in all of baseball this year, so I don't think it's all that realistic to get 2-3 of him easily.

Man... you guys all underrate Freddie Freeman. I don't get it.
 
Are you guys telling me that we could not get possibly 2 -3 FF type hitters that are only a ~2 years away (similar time lines as JT replacements) if we traded both JT and FF, plus a few solid prospect that are farther out? We are not giving JT and FF away. So replacements don't always have to come from what we have now. plus you have the potential Viz trade if he rebounds.

Potential 140 WRC+ hitters that are a couple of years away generally aren't traded.
 
To me it's the difference of hoping for a long shot to pay off (it does happen) and building the foundation of a consistent long term winner like the Cubs have done. The Cubs haven't been perfect (signing Heyward was a head scratching and costly mistake, but they have the money) but they have been patient and mostly stuck to their plan. They have young stars all over the field, have made some shrewd FA signings (some mistakes as well) and still have a reasonably good minor league system that should feed them young talent for several more years. They are going to be a force to deal with for the next 5-6 years. They are not a one or two year wonder.

If you look at a team like Kansas City, they pretty much have to build for the peaks and valleys. They don't have the payroll capacity to scale up with their young talent. So, they will cycle up and down. They are on their way down now.

Teams with virtually unlimited money will try to buy their seat at the top every year. They get knocked out of that position when they make one too many bad investments like getting old all at the same time with players far past their prime but paid like they aren't (AROD, Sabathia, Tex, etc.).

The teams in the middle (Atlanta, Chicago Cubs, St. Louis, etc.) must try to build waves of talent that they can ride to the top and still have those waves wash up every so often to help keep them there. Saying that all the talent will ripen at the same time and the team will magically be good is just not correct and not the point I'm trying to make at all. I'm saying you have to have waves of talent pushing up and the first real wave of talent pushing into Atlanta may start next year and will hopefully continue for several successive years.

I believe that the Braves front office looked into the challenge and could not face it and have now preempted the full rebuild because of the demands of moving into a new park. This will likely lead to a rebuild that is not maximized in it's effectiveness. It could still possibly be good enough, especially if enough new payroll is pumped in that they can buy their way out of mistakes and shortcomings. That's the best case. The middle case is that the rebuild completely falls flat, all the Johns are fired and ownership brings in new management that will do the rebuild right (but it takes 5 more years). The worst case scenario is that the rebuild is just good enough to allow all the John's to keep their jobs, but not good enough to allow the team to move out of baseball purgatory, not ever dead last but not ever good enough to actually win anything.

In what alternate universe can Atlanta be grouped with the Cubs and Cardinals? Those teams have sold out games consistently for years whether they've been competitive or not. Those are quite possibly the two LEAST fickle fanbases in the league.

Cubs' wins, attendance, and draft picks by year...

2008 - 97 wins - 3,300,200 - Brett Jackson (2009)
2009 - 83 wins - 3,168,859 - Hayden Simpson (2010)
2010 - 75 wins - 3,062,973 - Javier Baez (2011)
2011 - 71 wins - 3,017,966 - Albert Almora, Pierce Johnson, Paul Blackburn (2012)
2012 - 61 wins - 2,882,756 - Kris Bryant (2013)
2013 - 66 wins - 2,642,682 - Kyle Schwarber (2014)
2014 - 73 wins - 2,652,113 - Ian Happ (2015)

The last time the Braves drew more fans than the Cubs did in their worst season during that stretch was 2007. The time before that was 2001. They're at just over 1,310,000 this season with 22 home dates left, so it's not inconceivable that they draw less than 1.75 million fans this season WITH Julio and Freeman on the roster. I shudder to think what attendance will look like without either of them even with the new park.
 
Freddie Freeman by some metrics has been a top 10 offensive player in all of baseball this year, so I don't think it's all that realistic to get 2-3 of him easily.

Man... you guys all underrate Freddie Freeman. I don't get it.

I miss stated. Sorry. I don't mean 2-3 just like FF, but 2-3 potential impact bats that would equal or > than FF. I am saying, if you get a 1B, OF, C and maybe one more out of those two trades that can produce ~12 War, then you replaced both JT and FF in War, plus you have internal spots for Pitching replacements. PLUS (not to sound like an infomercial).. you have ~30 million per to spend (JT and FF contracts)

-- again, this is only done if we win these trades. I am fine with plan B. I just personally would seek these trades to really build the foundation.
 
In what alternate universe can Atlanta be grouped with the Cubs and Cardinals? Those teams have sold out games consistently for years whether they've been competitive or not. Those are quite possibly the two LEAST fickle fanbases in the league.

Cubs' wins, attendance, and draft picks by year...

2008 - 97 wins - 3,300,200 - Brett Jackson (2009)
2009 - 83 wins - 3,168,859 - Hayden Simpson (2010)
2010 - 75 wins - 3,062,973 - Javier Baez (2011)
2011 - 71 wins - 3,017,966 - Albert Almora, Pierce Johnson, Paul Blackburn (2012)
2012 - 61 wins - 2,882,756 - Kris Bryant (2013)
2013 - 66 wins - 2,642,682 - Kyle Schwarber (2014)
2014 - 73 wins - 2,652,113 - Ian Happ (2015)

The last time the Braves drew more fans than the Cubs did in their worst season during that stretch was 2007. The time before that was 2001. They're at just over 1,310,000 this season with 22 home dates left, so it's not inconceivable that they draw less than 1.75 million fans this season WITH Julio and Freeman on the roster. I shudder to think what attendance will look like without either of them even with the new park.

It's not about attendance. It's about payroll.

Atlanta is probably NEVER going to have the kind of fan base those teams have. Even in the middle of the long run of playoff contenders, Atlanta wasn't selling out regular season OR playoff games. I think there are lots of reasons for this one being college football. Then you have to consider that Atlanta is a bit of a surge City with a lot of growth through the 80's and 90's, people who were already affiliated with other ML teams, if they followed baseball at all. Then the fact that the Atlanta fan base is scattered all over the SE, largely due to the old influence of TBS.

But for payroll, Atlanta should be in a league with St. Louis and the Cubs (the Cubs have really never spent like the Yankees, Dodgers or Red Sox). And payroll is where team building starts.
 
Are you guys telling me that we could not get possibly 2 -3 FF type hitters that are only a ~2 years away (similar time lines as JT replacements) if we traded both JT and FF, plus a few solid prospect that are farther out? We are not giving JT and FF away. So replacements don't always have to come from what we have now. plus you have the potential Viz trade if he rebounds.

We need good hitters, and your solution is trade away our best one?

The likelihood of ANY prospect we get in return being close to as good as Freeman is slim, much less every prospect in a package for Freeman.
 
If we trade JT, why would we not trade FF. I don't see the logic in trading one but not the other. Trade JT, you kick the can down the road but if you trade both, I don't think you kick the can much farther down the road.. so if you trade JT, then you might as well trade FF.

I think the realistic answer to your question, is that we can really get a realistic positive return for Julio than we will with Freeman. Julio is a very good pitcher, if we can get return similar to what the Rays got for Shields, that would be sick. Look at a team who's pretty good but has pitching issues, like Texas or Boston. If Texas offered up Gallo, Jurado and Jenkins for Julio, it would net us a talented arm, someone who can start 3B now, and a high ceiling prospect. For Freeman we'd need an insane trade return. Like a Miguel Cabrera trade where the team we're trading to gives us multiple top 10 prospects, some other high ceiling prospects, and take Kemp and/or Markakis off our books.
 
It's not about attendance. It's about payroll.

Atlanta is probably NEVER going to have the kind of fan base those teams have. Even in the middle of the long run of playoff contenders, Atlanta wasn't selling out regular season OR playoff games. I think there are lots of reasons for this one being college football. Then you have to consider that Atlanta is a bit of a surge City with a lot of growth through the 80's and 90's, people who were already affiliated with other ML teams, if they followed baseball at all. Then the fact that the Atlanta fan base is scattered all over the SE, largely due to the old influence of TBS.

But for payroll, Atlanta should be in a league with St. Louis and the Cubs (the Cubs have really never spent like the Yankees, Dodgers or Red Sox). And payroll is where team building starts.

I'd imagine this is everyone's hope. Assuming that's the case - and that would certainly fall in line with the brass' statement that they expect to be around Top 10 in payroll - the Cubs are currently #5 and the Cards are #9. We have to disagree about the "it's not about attendance part" though - 1.5 million more tickets sold by the Cubs this year is still at least ~$40 million worth of extra revenue.

~$161 million gets you into the Top 10 THIS year. I think it's fair to expect that number to climb to around $180 million minimum by the time the monster free-agent class arrives following 2018. This is the reason I agree with the people who think a couple of well-placed signings to 3 year deals could actually be quite helpful. Payroll for 2017 is at roughly $60.8 million not including renewals and arb-eligibles right now. Several short-term signings to fill holes - even if they're slightly over-market dollarwise to keep the lengths down - don't get in the way of anything, and if a couple of them are the "right players" they could even be flipped to add even more depth to the system without trading Julio or Freeman. If you could keep deals for say Desmond and Castro to 3 years - even if you had to go to $20 million per in Desmond's case - their deals PLUS Kemp and Markakis' will be off the books by the time the big class gets here. The only money currently spent in 2019 is the $32 million due Freddie and Julio. If we assume Swanson and Albies are going to be solid contributors and that we'll have a pretty good chunk of our rotation and pen coming from within by then, the brass could still go on a huge spending spree that winter if they so choose.
 
Freddie Freeman by some metrics has been a top 10 offensive player in all of baseball this year, so I don't think it's all that realistic to get 2-3 of him easily.

Man... you guys all underrate Freddie Freeman. I don't get it.
That's how I feel. Hell, I did earlier this year, but not anymore. The guy is really good and we need to hold onto him.
 
It's not about attendance. It's about payroll.

Atlanta is probably NEVER going to have the kind of fan base those teams have. Even in the middle of the long run of playoff contenders, Atlanta wasn't selling out regular season OR playoff games. I think there are lots of reasons for this one being college football. Then you have to consider that Atlanta is a bit of a surge City with a lot of growth through the 80's and 90's, people who were already affiliated with other ML teams, if they followed baseball at all. Then the fact that the Atlanta fan base is scattered all over the SE, largely due to the old influence of TBS.

But for payroll, Atlanta should be in a league with St. Louis and the Cubs (the Cubs have really never spent like the Yankees, Dodgers or Red Sox). And payroll is where team building starts.

I loathe the Cardinals at a level, but they are the team we should model our efforts after. Get a couple of anchor guys and fill in around them with solid guys who each bring something to the table. Freeman is an anchor player and unless we are totally blown away by an offer, he should remain with us.
 
I loathe the Cardinals at a level, but they are the team we should model our efforts after. Get a couple of anchor guys and fill in around them with solid guys who each bring something to the table. Freeman is an anchor player and unless we are totally blown away by an offer, he should remain with us.

And I'm talking COMPLETELY blown away - something like zito mentioned earlier.
 
One thought I just had about the Kemp deal that I'm curious to bounce off of everyone:

Do you wonder at all if the Braves are considering the possibility of the DH coming in the new CBA? I don't mean that they know something and are planning accordingly, but does anybody think it at least entered their thought process? If it did happen, I'd be totally cool with Kemp at his price tag.
 
I don't think it's unlikely that the DH will be universally adopted, but I assume they would give the NL clubs a year or two of grace to construct their rosters accordingly.
 
One thought I just had about the Kemp deal that I'm curious to bounce off of everyone:

Do you wonder at all if the Braves are considering the possibility of the DH coming in the new CBA? I don't mean that they know something and are planning accordingly, but does anybody think it at least entered their thought process? If it did happen, I'd be totally cool with Kemp at his price tag.

Thoughts like this have crossed my mind as well, especially regarding service time rules with the new CBA. JS is on some sort of rules/oversight/competition committee, so he may have some inside info on what the league is willing to concede to the players union. JS may know things about draft pick compensation, service time rules, international draft changes, DH changes, expanded rosters, etc, that might be influencing current roster decisions for the Braves.

For example, he may know it's a foregone conclusion they would have had to keep Swanson down for 3+ months next year to gain the extra year of control, so they weren't worried about starting his clock now since they weren't going to keep him in AAA for 3+ months next year anyways. Albies is much younger, so a 3+ month stint in AAA is much more likely for him...thus no Albies in Atlanta this year.

JS could very well know the DH is coming to the NL, which could be why they went after Kemp and are in on Mac.

All speculation, of course.
 
Small Sample Size time but in 217 innings with the Braves Kemp has -0.8 UZR range. Compared to -7.5 UZR range in 827 innings with the Padres. So there is an improvement there.

Yes, SSS does apply. He certainly doesn't look smooth out there, but he makes most of the plays you expect him to. I can only think of one drop. He will never be great, but Garrett Anderson he is not.
 
One thought I just had about the Kemp deal that I'm curious to bounce off of everyone:

Do you wonder at all if the Braves are considering the possibility of the DH coming in the new CBA? I don't mean that they know something and are planning accordingly, but does anybody think it at least entered their thought process? If it did happen, I'd be totally cool with Kemp at his price tag.

Just to compare, the average DH has a line of .258/.329/.475. Matt Kemps line is .256/.288/.471. Im not sure I would want to shell that type of money for a below average/average DH. Finding guys that only have to hit really isn't tough. Its tough to find guys that can hit and put a glove on their hand.

Plus, how old would Kemp be when the DH is adopted?
 
Small Sample Size time but in 217 innings with the Braves Kemp has -0.8 UZR range. Compared to -7.5 UZR range in 827 innings with the Padres. So there is an improvement there.

DRS says he's been -8 in 230 innings with the Braves and -7 in 827 innings with the Pads so he's been a much worse defender.
 
DRS says he's been -8 in 230 innings with the Braves and -7 in 827 innings with the Pads so he's been a much worse defender.

Yeah if you use DRS. Which one is right? The one that supports your argument I guess? I've only used UZR and it's range rating when discussing the effects of a plus plus CFer on other outfielders. It's also the one used by WAR on fangraphs so if your going to quote fWar that should be the one you look at.
 
They are both definitely flawed. I don't think it matters if he is -8 or -7 or -0.8. I think the point is that he is well below average according to both metrics. It is obvious by watching a single game that he is a poor defender.

But that's why he was traded to the Braves for Hector Olivera.
 
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