Peraza

bravesfanMatt said:
again that guy came with hype. much like Yulieski Gurriel. The Stros are taking a chance that he will pay off. The Braves were doing the same thing. Was it dumb, yes.. but it wasn't like they traded these guys for nothing..well he turned into nothing.
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He was also damaged goods at the time of the trade.
 
The Dodgers knew they had messed up. You don't give a guy a 60+million contract and trade him a few months later without reason. There was no doubt a celebration when the trade went down. They targeted the teams that were in the bidding war to sign him to begin with and found the biggest sucker.
 
bravesfanMatt said:
I guess by the teams that bid for his services.
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Okay ... this is safe, but not very sound logic.

and the fact that before the trade he hit very well in the Dodger's minor league system in a very small sample size.. but those were the only stats you could go by at that point since he didn't start sucking until he put on a Brave's uni
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Ok. But I think you know that the Atlanta front office wasn't going entirely off of 68 ABs in the AFL, AA, and the PCL.
 
gilesfan said:
He was also damaged goods at the time of the trade.
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yes.. hammy, so not the end of the world. did HO even go on the disabled list while with the Braves? I can't remember. I don't think he was a big health problem.

again, I hate that I am arguing this. I hated the trade. I feel like I am defending a criminal when I know he did it.. but I still think it is unfair to say HO was garbage at the time of the trade.
 
Hawk said:
Ok. But I think you know that the Atlanta front office wasn't going entirely off of 68 ABs in the AFL, AA, and the PCL.
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nope, probably a combo of his work out, and Cuban numbers plus Dodger's numbers.... Basically saying he was one of those mystery boxes in the store. pay 10 bucks and you don't know what you are getting. Just this box cost way more than $10. I have a feeling the Braves might not shop for those mystery boxes anymore.
 
bravesfanMatt said:
yes.. hammy, so not the end of the world. did HO even go on the disabled list while with the Braves? I can't remember. I don't think he was a big health problem.

again, I hate that I am arguing this. I hated the trade. I feel like I am defending a criminal when I know he did it.. but I still think it is unfair to say HO was garbage at the time of the trade.
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He wasn't garbage at the time, but he was at best a HUGE gamble with no MLB experience that we paid through the nose for. Did the Braves even stop to think "Why are they trading a guy they just signed to a big deal if he's that good?"....because I questioned that off the get go.
 
TheBravos said:
The Dodgers knew they had messed up. You don't give a guy a 60+million contract and trade him a few months later without reason. There was no doubt a celebration when the trade went down. They targeted the teams that were in the bidding war to sign him to begin with and found the biggest sucker.
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could the Braves have done the same. They found a team that would take a much over hyped prospect and a pitcher destined to be on the DL plus two garbage relievers for a Cuban they liked, cash, a long shot pitching prospect, a good reliever that might get healthy and more important, a very good draft position.
 
bravesfanMatt said:
nope, probably a combo of his work out, and Cuban numbers plus Dodger's numbers.... Basically saying he was one of those mystery boxes in the store. pay 10 bucks and you don't know what you are getting. Just this box cost way more than $10. I have a feeling the Braves might not shop for those mystery boxes anymore.
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I don't think they looked his numbers at all. I think somebody in the front office wanted him really bad (like Theo Epstein going ballistic over losing Jose Contreras to NYY) and the Dodgers played into the Braves' desire. Maybe it was the Cuban connection with Fredi, maybe it was the showcase, who knows the genesis of it.

Taking a gamble on Olivera would have made a lot of sense for a lot of teams. Despite the fact that his elbow was a major question mark and there were still lingering questions about his skill level and long-term position. But not for the Braves and not for Peraza and Wood, even more certainly. No matter how hard you try to bury those two pieces, they were still valuable players at the time and, sure, they're perhaps less valuable now - but they are still actually playing Major League baseball, and will likely continue to do so for the foreseeable future.
 
Hawk said:
I don't think they looked his numbers at all. I think somebody in the front office wanted him really bad (like Theo Epstein going ballistic over losing Jose Contreras to NYY) and the Dodgers played into the Braves' desire. Maybe it was the Cuban connection with Fredi, maybe it was the showcase, who knows the genesis of it.

Taking a gamble on Olivera would have made a lot of sense for a lot of teams. Despite the fact that his elbow was a major question mark and there were still lingering questions about his skill level and long-term position. But not for the Braves and not for Peraza and Wood, even more certainly. No matter how hard you try to bury those two pieces, they were still valuable players at the time and, sure, they're perhaps less valuable now - but they are still actually playing Major League baseball, and will likely continue to do so for the foreseeable future.
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No MLB experience at 30 years old, injury concerns, and a big long term contract...this has "buyer beware" written all over it. I'll just never understand the trade. You can make a argument for any other trade over the past few years...i'll give you that. Anyone making an excuse for this one when even the GM says it was bad? No...no excuses....horrible, bonehead, shortsighted...I could go on.
 
yeezus said:
I'm saying the Olivera for Kemp part. I don't think it was "moronic."
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It is. Because it's significant increase in payroll. 25 million for a player who's last 4 seasons has combined for a 1.6 fWAR. Which if we call him a 0.4 fWAR player per year makes him worth about 3M, which leaves us at 5.5 million per year deficit.

That being said, There's a chance he could post a year like 2014 where he's certainly worth the money we're paying. Or it could be like 2013 where he costs you wins.

Basically for 3 of the last 4 years. Matt Kemp has been a league average hitter with terrible defense, that's not worth 8.5M.
 
FWIW, I was all for trading Peraza and Wood. I just wanted a MLB player back. Like if we could have gotten Todd Frazier, wouldn't that have been nice? Or packaged them in a LuCroy deal. Or moved them for other prospects.
 
This war thing....Heyward should put that to rest. Kemp won the game last night for us, has the most RBI and pretty much the same HR's as Freddie (our $100 mil player). Tell me another bat you can get for under 9 mil that will hit over 30 HR's and 100 RBI...you won't find one...not one unless it's just a lucky sign. His bat will win more than his D will cost us..way more.
 
zitothebrave said:
And I think Hart stepping down for Coppy largely happened because of that terrible trade.
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I think Coppy pushed for that trade. he certainly never distanced himself from it before it failed. Not sure he's done so now. In fact, I think he said that is one "I would like to have back."

They did a few things PR wise to make Hart the heavy, but it seemed apparent at the time that it was basically Coppy's show.

Course Coppy is very comfortable making his decisions seem like a group effort when they go wrong -- just my impression from listening to a couple of podcasts.
 
TheBravos said:
The Dodgers knew they had messed up. You don't give a guy a 60+million contract and trade him a few months later without reason. There was no doubt a celebration when the trade went down. They targeted the teams that were in the bidding war to sign him to begin with and found the biggest sucker.
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You might if you get Mat Latos, Alex Wood, Jim Johnson, Luis Avila, Michael Morse, and Jose Peraza out of the deal.

Still...sure, the Dodgers obviously didn't think he was going to be an elite player. Whether they knew he might not hit .260 with 15 HRs some day? I don't know. They got a lot of pieces in an attempt to go for it without giving up their most treasured prospects.

Course it really didn't do much for them either.
 
TheBravos said:
This war thing....Heyward should put that to rest. Kemp won the game last night for us, has the most RBI and pretty much the same HR's as Freddie (our $100 mil player). Tell me another bat you can get for under 9 mil that will hit over 30 HR's and 100 RBI...you won't find one...not one unless it's just a lucky sign. His bat will win more than his D will cost us..way more.
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Except that it may not. Realize that Kemp hasn't hit 30 homers regularly. If he hits 30 this year, it will only be the second season that he's done it. He's got power, but nothing too insane. And RBIs are 100% dependent on the players who play in front of you. If he has a 100 RBI season, it's because the guys in front of him are getting on. Not because of any skill he has.

WAR is not perfect, but ti's a good estimation. Kemp has some value, but he's a flawed hitter. He relies so heavily on his power that when it's not on his highest game he tanks his value.
 
TheBravos said:
This war thing....Heyward should put that to rest. Kemp won the game last night for us, has the most RBI and pretty much the same HR's as Freddie (our $100 mil player). Tell me another bat you can get for under 9 mil that will hit over 30 HR's and 100 RBI...you won't find one...not one unless it's just a lucky sign. His bat will win more than his D will cost us..way more.
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30 homers with a 300 OBP isn't that good. Luckily he has walked more since coming to Atlanta but he's a league average hitter right now 30 homeruns or not.
 
zitothebrave said:
It is. Because it's significant increase in payroll. 25 million for a player who's last 4 seasons has combined for a 1.6 fWAR. Which if we call him a 0.4 fWAR player per year makes him worth about 3M, which leaves us at 5.5 million per year deficit.

That being said, There's a chance he could post a year like 2014 where he's certainly worth the money we're paying. Or it could be like 2013 where he costs you wins.

Basically for 3 of the last 4 years. Matt Kemp has been a league average hitter with terrible defense, that's not worth 8.5M.
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AGAIN: Teams don't just look at WAR when evaluating players/trades like you do. Thank the lord they don't, because they'd be a terrible, terrible organization if that's all they did. WAR is not the holy grail for any organization like it is for you.
 
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