Braves trade Mallex and Simmons to M's for Gohara and Burrows

Enscheff said:
So if everyone has him pegged as a 4th OFer, why trade him now at that value? Why not give him some time in AAA to prove he can be an everyday CFer that posts 2-3 WAR? Why not see is he can reach his lofty KATOH projections after already posting 1 WAR in less than half an MLB season?

Worst case scenario is he confirms he is a 4th OFer, and has the exact same value as right now.

What was the rush to trade him now? Did the Braves have an urgent need for yet another A ball pitcher?
Click to expand...

I don' t think it is a rush. But it could be a rush if they already have plans for signings and they need the 40 man spot. The 40 man is crowded and they may also be anticipating spots for Albies, Newcombe etc next year.

But I don't think this is a rush. Reports are out that the Ms have tried to get Mallex for a long time. I think they moved him because the Braves thought they would get a superior asset.

The A ball pitcher is another top 50 guy that could be filler when we promote or trade others.

I personally don't get this Mallex WAR argument. If all that matters in CF is great defense, then why don't we just call up any number of super fast players we have and put them all over the OFs right now? Mallex is really fast and range seems to be the main component of these measures. But he's not a natural defender. He doesn't take great routes. And he's got a wet noodle for an arm. I just don't see this elite defender that teams are going to want to start. Maybe in Tampa Bay where they can have a DH and hit him 9th...
 
Enscheff said:
Nope. They trade 20 year old pitchers in Low A ball with shoulder issues and conditioning problems for them.

Or...exactly what the Braves got. Another LHed lottery ticket.
Click to expand...

So what is your explanation for fangraphs saying gohara might be top 50?
 
Russ2dollas said:
I don' t think it is a rush. But it could be a rush if they already have plans for signings and they need the 40 man spot. The 40 man is crowded and they may also be anticipating spots for Albies, Newcombe etc next year.

But I don't think this is a rush. Reports are out that the Ms have tried to get Mallex for a long time. I think they moved him because the Braves thought they would get a superior asset.

The A ball pitcher is another top 50 guy that could be filler when we promote or trade others.

I personally don't get this Mallex WAR argument. If all that matters in CF is great defense, then why don't we just call up any number of super fast players we have and put them all over the OFs right now? Mallex is really fast and range seems to be the main component of these measures. But he's not a natural defender. He doesn't take great routes. And he's got a wet noodle for an arm. I just don't see this elite defender that teams are going to want to start. Maybe in Tampa Bay where they can have a DH and hit him 9th...
Click to expand...

Because above average defense in CF coupled with a below average bat is valuable. Above average defense and inept offense is not valuable.

Basic player value 101 here guys. Come on.
 
thethe said:
So what is your explanation for fangraphs saying gohara might be top 50?
Click to expand...

I will paste my same response again.

Allow me to quote the statement, and then breakdown what it means to help the folks with limited reading comprehension.

"On upside, Gohara is one of baseball’s top-50 prospects (pretty conservatively), with the chance to be a No. 2 or 3 starter if everything comes together. He represents significant risk because of his occupation and history of conditioning issues. His floor (assuming he doesn’t completely flame out in the minors) is that of a late-inning reliever."

Sentence 1: Based on upside, Gohara has the one of the top 50 ceilings of all prospects.

Sentence 2: When risk factors are accounted for, such as his conditioning issues and the volatility of pitching prospects, his overall value is lowered.

I have seen Longenhagen routinely knock a half to a full grade off the FV of a prospect based on risk factors. Since he pegs Gohara with "significant risk", a full grade will likely be deducted, placing him right around 50 FV.
 
Enscheff said:
Nope. They trade 20 year old pitchers in Low A ball with shoulder issues and conditioning problems for them.

Or...exactly what the Braves got. Another LHed lottery ticket.
Click to expand...

You know full well in this case it's both.

Apparently he lost 30 pounds last year and really improved...
 
Enscheff said:
Longenhagen for FG just pegged Gohara with 2/3 SP upside.

Here is the type of praise they heap on future Aces"

"Giolito has the highest ceiling among Minor League pitchers, boasting an elite fastball that sits mid-to-upper-90s and a 12-to-6 curveball that he throws with power and hard, downer action. His changeup has steadily improved in the past two seasons and his confidence along with it, giving him a legitimate weapon against left-handed hitters."

"The big right-hander has serious swing-and-miss stuff, with a fastball that touches the mid-90s consistently and can hit triple digits to complement a devastating power curveball. Unlike some young pitchers, Reyes is willing to throw his changeup and understands the value of having it to make his two plus offerings better. Though it's behind the other two, it should be Major League average in time.

Command and control have been Reyes' biggest obstacles, but he's improved tremendously over the past couple of seasons, particularly in terms of his fastball command."

"His stuff is ready to get big league hitters out, starting with a mid-to-upper-90s fastball that gets swings and misses both in and out of the strike zone. When Glasnow returned from an ankle injury in 2015, his feel for his curveball was inconsistent, forcing him to throw his changeup more and helping him improve his third offering. Control has always been his biggest issue, but he's made significant strides in that area. "

Notice a trend? Huge fastball, elite breaking ball, a change that is already showing results, and command that is already coming together. These are not guys with a good fastball/curve combo with the potential to add a change and poor command. These are guys with 3 plus or better pitches and demonstrated command.
Click to expand...

Giolito - 22

Reyes - 22

Glasnow - 23

Gohara - 20

maybe his scouting report reads a little different in a couple years....maybe not...either way you cannot make that comparison as things stand.
 
Enscheff said:
Holy **** you are stupid. I will paste my same response again.

Allow me to quote the statement, and then breakdown what it means to help the folks with limited reading comprehension.

"On upside, Gohara is one of baseball’s top-50 prospects (pretty conservatively), with the chance to be a No. 2 or 3 starter if everything comes together. He represents significant risk because of his occupation and history of conditioning issues. His floor (assuming he doesn’t completely flame out in the minors) is that of a late-inning reliever."

Sentence 1: Based on upside, Gohara has the one of the top 50 ceilings of all prospects.

Sentence 2: When risk factors are accounted for, such as his conditioning issues and the volatility of pitching prospects, his overall value is lowered.

I have seen Longenhagen routinely knock a half to a full grade off the FV of a prospect based on risk factors. Since he pegs Gohara with "significant risk", a full grade will likely be deducted, placing him right around 50 FV.
Click to expand...

His occupation is pitcher. So in Ldfjdlljjhagen going to knock off all pitchers? He's being cute.

Conditioning improved last year. The Braves got Ruiz to step up in that area.

If the kid was perfect he wouldn't be available.

If we do the same thing for Mallex we say on the upside he's really fast and that might help him have good range. And Maybe he'll steal some bases. But on the down size he can't throw anyone out, was never a top prospect, and nobody thinks he'll hit.

For me it's harder to get LH that throw mid 90s than it is to get fast guys.
 
Enscheff said:
Because above average defense in CF coupled with a below average bat is valuable. Above average defense and inept offense is not valuable.

Basic player value 101 here guys. Come on.
Click to expand...

And is Mallex above an inept bat? I'd say yes vs RH, but not vs LH.

And I'm not sure above avg defense is a given with Mallex either. By all accounts he really improved last year in that area. Improvements in a small sample size in an area where gigantic samples are needed. Coming up in the minors defense was a concern. Most of you would call that an outlier and dismiss it until you see more.

And valuable in this case means about as valuable as a lottery ticket arm. Valuable in that if we cut him from the 40 man we'd pick him up. Not valuable in that he's a starter on a team that doesn't suck.
 
Russ2dollas said:
His occupation is pitcher. So in Ldfjdlljjhagen going to knock off all pitchers? He's being cute.

Conditioning improved last year. The Braves got Ruiz to step up in that area.

If the kid was perfect he wouldn't be available.

If we do the same thing for Mallex we say on the upside he's really fast and that might help him have good range. And Maybe he'll steal some bases. But on the down size he can't throw anyone out, was never a top prospect, and nobody thinks he'll hit.

For me it's harder to get LH that throw mid 90s than it is to get fast guys.
Click to expand...

Fast guys? I bet you $100 I can find more LHers that throw 93+ than you can find "fast guys" with a career OBP over .380 while playing significant time at all minor league levels.
 
Russ2dollas said:
And is Mallex above an inept bat? I'd say yes vs RH, but not vs LH.

And I'm not sure above avg defense is a given with Mallex either. By all accounts he really improved last year in that area. Improvements in a small sample size in an area where gigantic samples are needed. Coming up in the minors defense was a concern. Most of you would call that an outlier and dismiss it until you see more.

And valuable in this case means about as valuable as a lottery ticket arm. Valuable in that if we cut him from the 40 man we'd pick him up. Not valuable in that he's a starter on a team that doesn't suck.
Click to expand...

We got a first round talent for Mallex. I wanted to see Mallex with the Braves but how are we arguing that this return wasn't enough?
 
Enscheff said:
Fast guys? I bet you $100 I can find more LHers that throw 93+ than you can find "fast guys" with a career OBP over .380 while playing significant time at all minor league levels.
Click to expand...

Who also k more than 1 batter per inning in their brief minor league career?
 
Russ2dollas said:
And is Mallex above an inept bat? I'd say yes vs RH, but not vs LH.

And I'm not sure above avg defense is a given with Mallex either. By all accounts he really improved last year in that area. Improvements in a small sample size in an area where gigantic samples are needed. Coming up in the minors defense was a concern. Most of you would call that an outlier and dismiss it until you see more.

And valuable in this case means about as valuable as a lottery ticket arm. Valuable in that if we cut him from the 40 man we'd pick him up. Not valuable in that he's a starter on a team that doesn't suck.
Click to expand...

Ok, but why unload him now? Why not let him prove he can be an everyday option in CF? Why did they need another A ball pitcher right now?

Why give Garcia so many chances to prove how bad he is, but unload Mallex so soon?
 
Enscheff said:
Ok, but why unload him now? Why not let him prove he can be an everyday option in CF? Why did they need another A ball pitcher right now?

Why give Garcia so many chances to prove how bad he is, but unload Mallex so soon?
Click to expand...

Because we don't have a player as valuable as Ender at third base?
 
The derp is strong in here. maybe it is time for someone to become an astronaut now and hit a mission to the space station to build statistical models that aggregates the total number of orbits around earth it would take for us to miss him.. :HeywardWut:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top