The Trump Presidency
- Thread starter The Tariff King
- Start date
Julio3000
<B>A Chip Off the Old Rock</B>
Who's being unfairly broad-brushed? Specifically.
Both Ruby Ridge and Waco involved federal law enforcement killing multiple people. I'm not sure I get the parallel. You think this is going to serve to radicalize more folks? Because some internet tough guy Nazis got pepper-sprayed and one of their number went ISIS on a street full of anti-racists?
Dunno. Maybe it will.
Honestly, though, the heart of that ideology has its roots elsewhere, it doesn't even need another bloody shirt to wave.
goldfly
<B>if my thought dreams could be seen</B>
**** the coward in the White House who won't directly admonish these people, **** those that put him there to allow these ****s to feel they could come out of the shadows and feel validated, **** Nazis and whatever bull**** term they want to use instead of nazi.
Runnin
Well-known member
I remember that they were radical cult or cult-like groups who refused to stand down and acknowledge govt authority, thus sealing their own fate. If I were POTUS or in charge of the Justice Dept. I would be even more confrontational against fringe/anti-govt. groups.
Julio3000
<B>A Chip Off the Old Rock</B>
I honestly don't think it matters if "not all of the participants were members of hate groups." If those groups were invited, their leaders spoke, and their members marched alongside...what, precisely, is the difference?
Seriously. If you're marching with nazis to protect a confederate monument, you're seriously going to object to being "broad-brushed"? Someone's gonna need to parse those subtleties for me.
Seriously. If you're marching with nazis to protect a confederate monument, you're seriously going to object to being "broad-brushed"? Someone's gonna need to parse those subtleties for me.
chop2chip
Well-known member
I feel validated enough in my disgust I have heretofore shown towards Nazi and Nazi-sympathizers alike in this thread, so I excuse myself to ask what is both a relevant and irrelevant question. I'm not so keen to the mood of the South concerning the symbolism of honoring certain figures from the Confederacy, so I ask those that are (and specifically you [MENTION=4]Julio3000[/MENTION], since I quoted your post).
Why was it really necessary to poke this bear in the first place by removing Lee's statue? I don't think it's a very difficult argument to make that his importance to Southern culture supersedes racism. I can absolutely understand the frustration that some may feel that their history has been swallowed up by the monoculture without labeling them with the broad brush of White Nationalism. I'd argue it's this sentiment that's driving the rise of the Alt-Right across Europe.
sturg33
I
This...
Now some colleges are considering removing statutes of Thomas Jefferson because he once owned slaves.
At this point, why don't we just wipe out all of our history prior to today I guess
Julio3000
<B>A Chip Off the Old Rock</B>
haha, thanks for asking ;-)
First, this:
"I don't think it's a very difficult argument to make that his importance to Southern culture supersedes racism."
What is so often casually referred to as Southern culture is white Southern culture. "Southern culture," imo, is a tad more complex beast than that. Ask a black southerner how important Robert E. Lee is to his or her culture.
The speech that Mitch Landrieu gave on the removal of 3 monuments in New Orleans was a pretty good encapsulation of the issue as far as I'm concerned.
I suppose it's an attempt to symbolically right some historic wrongs--not the Civil War, not slavery, but the persistent myths about the nobility of the Lost Cause that continued a half-century after the war (when that statue was erected) and in the century after that, right up until the present day. As far as I'm concerned, there is NOTHING about the CSA that should be celebrated or elevated. These monuments certainly do that.
On the other hand, because I have a soft spot for old, musty stuff, I'd probably be content with historically accurate plaques and informational signage around these monuments instead of outright removal. But I also defer to the feelings of those who were and are most directly harmed by the system of white supremacy in the ante- and postbellum south. I can easily imagine what seeing those tangible reminders of power and influence every day could mean to people from different walks of life.
As for poking the bear? I'm not sure how to address that, exactly. Change can be painful and uncomfortable. That's true for me, and for most, I suppose. Stirring the pot can be difficult and awkward and messy. This bear, though? I think this bear should be--figuratively--staked through the heart, not poked.
Julio3000
<B>A Chip Off the Old Rock</B>
Because removing the statue doesn't remove the history? Of all the arguments around this issue, this is the dumbest. Like, will we not know who RE Lee is without a statue?
zitothebrave
Connoisseur of Minors
I'm gonna probably sound very anti my normal beliefs because I generally am pro-civil liberties, but I don't give a **** what happens to neo-nazis. To me they're subhuman. They surrendered their basic civil liberties when they chose to be neo-nazis. Like how the **** can you choose of anyone ever, to idolize the Nazis? In what reality were they not the bad guys? And if you want to be the "bad guy" then you should realize there's consequences for your actions.
To me if you are doing the "roman salute" in public or carrying a nazi flag and someone punches you, you deserve it. There's no other way around it for me.
For non-serious purposes, the Nazis are literally the enemy in thousands of videogames and movies.
Stomp out fascism, stomp out neo-nazis.
To me if you are doing the "roman salute" in public or carrying a nazi flag and someone punches you, you deserve it. There's no other way around it for me.
For non-serious purposes, the Nazis are literally the enemy in thousands of videogames and movies.
Stomp out fascism, stomp out neo-nazis.
zitothebrave
Connoisseur of Minors
Because a lot of people wanted it removed because of what it represents. Realize that the Confederacy fought to enslave people. that was their reason for seceding from the union. Almost unilaterally. Add in that modern day racists rally around the Flag born by Lee's army. It's pretty clear why some thought it was necessary to poke the bear. The better question is why do people feel it's so important to hold onto this monument?
zitothebrave
Connoisseur of Minors
That's a weird logic jump.
I personally think statues are dumb in general. I get why they exist, but I don't really care.
As far as removing Jefferson statues, what's your case against it?
nsacpi
Expects Yuge Games
It seems me there is a better way to "honor" southern history than to take down these monuments. How about adding more monuments. To honor the 150,000 plus freedmen who fought to save the Union. And some to honor the 100,000 plus white southerners who stayed loyal and fought for the North. We would do well to remember them. And of course the heroes and ordinary men and women who carried us through the civil rights movement. There are whole categories of southern heroes who are not remembered in the way they should be. I do think that taking down statues of Lee and others is an unnecessary provocation that could be sidestepped by more completely remembering other important parts of the South's history.
cajunrevenge
Well-known member
We should be more worried about the people enslaving people now than the ones who did so hundreds of years ago. Slavery by no means has ended.
DaneHill
Well-known member
On a side note, my Dad worked security at the Justice Dept with Janet Reno and they were friendly with each other. On the day of the Waco tragedy, he went up to check on her, and she was in tears beside herself with the news. Crying, she told him that she never wanted that to occur, that there were children in there. Seeing how distraught she was, he went over to her and gave her a hug. I suppose it's easy to forget that there are actual human beings with feelings when we condemn the government or police or what have you institution.
sturg33
I
Because he was an enormous historical figure that was instrumental in this country's founding and did a lot of ****ing amazing things for this country.
But he owned slaves so we must wipe the memory of him. George Washington too.. better start printing up new money - get that ****er's face off of there.
sturg33
I
i can't speak for others, but every time I walk past a statue in a public park, I look up who that person is and what he/she did. Have learned a lot doing it.
sturg33
I
Right.. white culture isn't allowed in this country anymore.
We can erect a statue of MLK, despite many moral shortfalls. And before everyone ****s their pants, I'm NOT saying infidelity and alleged woman beating is equivalent to to fighting for slaves (because it's not)... but if we're so intent on legislating morality, and not the actual history, then there's barely any room for anyone to be remembered.
AerchAngel
<B>Secretary of Statistics</B>
Any groups hate or otherwise should be able to assemble for protest and have their voice heard be it Neo-Schit heads, BLM, LGBT and the like. But when you start being violent is where it is not cool, like Neo-Schitheads and BLM. Both sides had people kill at their events and that is sad.
The perfect way to protest and you don't like them, just ignore them. If their word brainwash you into thinking like them, you are just an idiot like they are.
What I don't like seeing is that people jump on the Neo-Schitheads and their violence and then dismissed the BLM and their violence and total destruction of property by saying well it is not the same. WTF, yes it is the same, you can protest peacefully. Tearing schit up and shooting cops is wrong on so many levels.
Our Constitution gave everyone the right to voice their opinion in assembly but it does not give you the right to tear schit up, shoot cops or run over people.
The perfect way to protest and you don't like them, just ignore them. If their word brainwash you into thinking like them, you are just an idiot like they are.
What I don't like seeing is that people jump on the Neo-Schitheads and their violence and then dismissed the BLM and their violence and total destruction of property by saying well it is not the same. WTF, yes it is the same, you can protest peacefully. Tearing schit up and shooting cops is wrong on so many levels.
Our Constitution gave everyone the right to voice their opinion in assembly but it does not give you the right to tear schit up, shoot cops or run over people.