The Trump Presidency

sturg33 said:
I've asked twice and have gotten one incomplete answer...

but are we willing and ready to start tearing down any monument of a slave owner?
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not germane

to generalize from generals who fought to dismember the country to protect an economic system based on slavery to the founding fathers of the country is silly...No one is perfect, but there are degrees of imperfection. You can find actions and words by Lincoln, Grant and others who led the Northern side that will seem racist today. And maybe they were. But that should not obscure the fact that they were on the right side of the most monumental battle in our country's history. Yes, the right side. And imo which side you were on that divide should be given a lot of weight in how you are remembered today.
 
sturg33 said:
I've asked twice and have gotten one incomplete answer...

but are we willing and ready to start tearing down any monument of a slave owner?
Click to expand...

I believe I read a leftist group was protesting yesterday at the Museum of Natl History in NYC to get a Teddy Roosevelt statue removed (not the first time)
 
I also wonder, since it's OK to call Trump "the orange one"... would it have been socially acceptable to call Obama "the black one"

Just trying to keep up
 
nsacpi said:
not germane
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Why not?

By all accounts, Lee was a respected general, an American hero, who was asked to fight for the north, and was forgiven post-war for fighting for the south.

Well OK... none of that matters since he fought for the south and is thus a racist nazi whatever the word of the day is. Fine

By all accounts, Washing was a great leader, a great military man, the founder of our country, and ensure to give the power back to the people.

Well OK... none of that matters because he was OK with owning slaves and treating blacks as propoerty.

I'm not sure why it's not relevant. I think this is the direction we are going, and I think these decisions will be next.

Like I said, uniersities are already fighting to take down Jefferson... and see aces' post above
 
acesfull86 said:
I believe I read a leftist group was protesting yesterday at the Museum of Natl History in NYC to get a Teddy Roosevelt statue removed (not the first time)
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We need to just erase everyone from the history books who ever owned a slave. Doesn't matter what their accomplishments were to society.
 
Legitimately, I think we're trending towards a very dangerous path from the PC culture in this country.

Every day, someone gets silenced, a statue gets taken down, play-doh gets ordered, micro-aggressions are added to the list, a boyot is formed, etc etc etc

I don't care what anyone says, if you keep pushing and pushing and pushing on this stuff, eventually there is going to be a violent reaction.

At some point, people will say "enough is enough" and we may have yet another civil war on our hands.
 
sturg33 said:
Why not?

By all accounts, Lee was a respected general, an American hero, who was asked to fight for the north, and was forgiven post-war for fighting for the south.

Well OK... none of that matters since he fought for the south and is thus a racist nazi whatever the word of the day is. Fine

By all accounts, Washing was a great leader, a great military man, the founder of our country, and ensure to give the power back to the people.

Well OK... none of that matters because he was OK with owning slaves and treating blacks as propoerty.

I'm not sure why it's not relevant. I think this is the direction we are going, and I think these decisions will be next.

Like I said, uniersities are already fighting to take down Jefferson... and see aces' post above
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I added to my post.
 
sturg33 said:
By all accounts, Lee was a respected general, an American hero, who was asked to fight for the north, and was forgiven post-war for fighting for the south.
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Not convincing. By all accounts Rommel was a very fine man and not a fan of Hitler's. And yet if some folks in Germany wanted to honor his memory I would view it as highly inappropriate. There are so many better causes to which to devote one's energy than the historical reputations of people like Lee and Rommel. If you are a historian and want to write a balanced biography of one of them, fine. But if you are going to spend your energy arguing about the erection or maintenance of statues in their honor, I would think there is something wrong with you. As I mentioned earlier with some people, I think it is merely a weird hobby. With others, it is something much worse.
 
sturg33 said:
So you would then protest a removal of TJ statue (I believe it was Brown University wanting it to tear it down)?
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Me personally? I actually would leave up all the statues, including the confederates. My approach would be to promote a more complete appreciation of history, by including monuments to southerners (black and white) who fought to preserve the Union. And I would like to see Atlanta name one of their major roads Sherman Avenue.
 
nsacpi said:
Not convincing. By all accounts Rommel was a very fine man and not a fan of Hitler's. And yet if some folks in Germany wanted to honor his memory I would view it as highly inappropriate. There are so many better causes to which to devote one's energy than the historical reputations of people like Lee and Rommel. If you are a historian and want to write a balanced biography of one of them, fine. But if you are going to spend your energy arguing about the erection or maintenance of statues in their honor, I would think there is something wrong with you. As I mentioned earlier with some people, I think it is merely a weird hobby. With others, it is something much worse.
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I'm more concerned with the PC culture violently taking over this country. I see no reason to pull down a Lee statue.
 
nsacpi said:
PC culture is a bad thing. I agree. But I really don't think that's what the "Unite the Right" march was about. Under the cloak of advocating against PC culture, they were advancing a really sinister agenda.
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Maybe so.. but PC culture gave them a platform
 
sturg33 said:
Maybe so.. but PC culture gave them a platform
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I don't think so. And even if that was the case it would not matter to me. Evil is evil regardless of the forces that brought it into existence.

In opposing Radical Islam I don't worry too much about whether the root of the problem was the fall of Cordoba 700 years ago or the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I'm not too interested in the excuses they use for their barbaric behavior.
 
sturg33 said:
I've asked twice and have gotten one incomplete answer...

but are we willing and ready to start tearing down any monument of a slave owner?
Click to expand...

You think my answer was incomplete? Ok, here. 1) Your question is dumb and irrelevant. 2) Thomas Jefferson and George Washington are not honored today because they were slave owners. They are honored today because they are the Founding Fathers of this country. So 3) no, generally speaking, no one is willing nor ready to start tearing down those monuments, and for the handful of folks that might be thinking it, then they are wrong. People are ready and willing to tear down monuments of the Confederacy today because they have grown into less about honoring the history of the South and more about rallying the white racist underbelly of society.

And again, I personally, as a fan of U.S. history, good and tragic, do not like that these monuments are being taken down because I don't like to see our darker moments as Americans being swept under the rug. There's a certain 'book burning' feel to the whole situation that makes me uneasy.
 
DaneHill said:
You think my answer was incomplete? Ok, here. 1) Your question is dumb and irrelevant. 2) Thomas Jefferson and George Washington are not honored today because they were slave owners. They are honored today because they are the Founding Fathers of this country. So 3) no, generally speaking, no one is willing nor ready to start tearing down those monuments, and for the handful of folks that might be thinking it, then they are wrong. People are ready and willing to tear down monuments of the Confederacy today because they have grown into less about honoring the history of the South and more about rallying the white racist underbelly of society.

And again, I personally, as a fan of U.S. history, good and tragic, do not like that these monuments are being taken down because I don't like to see our darker moments as Americans being swept under the rug. There's a certain 'book burning' feel to the whole situation that makes me uneasy.
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1. I don't think it's dumb when it's actually being asked in this country

2. Thank you. I see the distinction.

3. Yes they are. https://www.change.org/p/the-univer...ve-the-statue-of-thomas-jefferson-from-campus
 
nsacpi said:
I don't think so. And even if that was the case it would not matter to me. Evil is evil regardless of the forces that brought it into existence.

In opposing Radical Islam I don't worry too much about whether the root of the problem was the fall of Cordoba 700 years ago or the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I'm not too interested in the excuses they use for their barbaric behavior.
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To your analogy.

I think US actions further embolden and recruit more islamicist... so I think it's important to understand what brings out the worst actors.
 
sturg33 said:
To your analogy.

I think US actions further embolden and recruit more islamicist... so I think it's important to understand what brings out the worst actors.
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You're right. I'm not interested in "root causes" as an excuse for certain behaviors. But I do have an interest in any analysis that helps our understanding of how to weaken and defeat the people behind those behaviors.
 
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