David Price expects to be dealt

Enscheff said:
I'm not understanding the argument you guys are having here...

Some want to give up potential Aces already on the staff in hopes of getting a "proven" Ace that could very well tail off? Didn't we see what happened to Halladay suddenly? Haven't we watched enough Braves pitchers fall to TJ surgery that we know any Ace is one torn ligament away from being useless?

Are we sure we want to part with the required resources to acquire Price knowing how fragile pitchers are in general?
Click to expand...

I'm kinda feel like this as well only because he was out for a time this season with shoulder tendinitis which is a huge issue!
 
BRule said:
Not sure how anyone can include Beachy in anything, so if you look at the rest of that group....I don't see any T.O.R guys....maybe T in a few years? If you want to go deep into the playoffs and win a ring, chances are you are going to need an Ace or two.
Click to expand...

I think Minor pitched like an ace this year. There are 15 teams in the NL and Minor was one of the top 15 pitchers in the NL. And he certainly pitched like an ace in the playoffs. If you're looking for an ace than what exactly seperates Price from Minor? I would argue that Minor was a better pitcher last year. And you can't just throw aside Beachy. Yeah he struggled coming back from TJ this year, but should be ok to go next season. Julio could develop into an ace as well. So maybe we already have an ace on the roster.
 
weso1 said:
I think Minor pitched like an ace this year. There are 15 teams in the NL and Minor was one of the top 15 pitchers in the NL. And he certainly pitched like an ace in the playoffs. If you're looking for an ace than what exactly seperates Price from Minor? I would argue that Minor was a better pitcher last year. And you can't just throw aside Beachy. Yeah he struggled coming back from TJ this year, but should be ok to go next season. Julio could develop into an ace as well. So maybe we already have an ace on the roster.
Click to expand...

Then let's hope they show more of it by next October, or we'll be sitting here a year from today talking about what we need for 2015.
 
weso1 said:
I think Minor pitched like an ace this year. There are 15 teams in the NL and Minor was one of the top 15 pitchers in the NL. And he certainly pitched like an ace in the playoffs. If you're looking for an ace than what exactly seperates Price from Minor? I would argue that Minor was a better pitcher last year. And you can't just throw aside Beachy. Yeah he struggled coming back from TJ this year, but should be ok to go next season. Julio could develop into an ace as well. So maybe we already have an ace on the roster.
Click to expand...

Price had 4 CGs, Minor had 1 (8 innings).
Price averaged almost 7 IP/start, minor less than 6.5.
Minor is not Price. Not yet, anyway.
 
What about instead of trying to acquire Price, we go after Headley and Bonifacio? Let McCann walk, start Gattis, use Chris Johnson, Graham, Sims, etc..as trade bait, and once all is said and done, we will have a very potent lineup.

Bonifacio, Heyward, JUpton, Freeman, Gattis, Headley, Simmons, BUpton

Bench of Schafer, Laird, Pena, EJohnson, Terdoslavich

Thoughts?
 
weso1 said:
I think Minor pitched like an ace this year. There are 15 teams in the NL and Minor was one of the top 15 pitchers in the NL. And he certainly pitched like an ace in the playoffs. If you're looking for an ace than what exactly seperates Price from Minor? I would argue that Minor was a better pitcher last year. And you can't just throw aside Beachy. Yeah he struggled coming back from TJ this year, but should be ok to go next season. Julio could develop into an ace as well. So maybe we already have an ace on the roster.
Click to expand...

Not sure that's the way you judge who is, or isn't an ace. I'm interested to hear how you could argue Minor was the better pitcher....?

Price beats him in K/9, BB/9, HR/9, FIP, xFIP, WAR, etc, etc, etc
 
weso1 said:
Fredi is Minor's manager.
Click to expand...

Meh I understand that, but it's not like Maddon doesn't use his BP a lot. Price is more economical with his pitches than Minor has been so far. That's the biggest difference, and that's what makes an ace vs. not an ace.
 
BRule said:
Not sure that's the way you judge who is, or isn't an ace. I'm interested to hear how you could argue Minor was the better pitcher....?

Price beats him in K/9, BB/9, HR/9, FIP, xFIP, WAR, etc, etc, etc
Click to expand...

By last year, I mean the 2013 season. I've already moved on. Minor has him beat in most of those categories for 2013.
 
Heading into postseason, many on here were debating whether or not Minor should start game 2 or game 3. I'd say that doesn't quite qualify him as Price just yet. But I'll be the first to eat crow if he goes out and becomes that ace and makes me dumb for even wanting to throw all that money at Price.
 
yeezus said:
Meh I understand that, but it's not like Maddon doesn't use his BP a lot. Price is more economical with his pitches than Minor has been so far. That's the biggest difference, and that's what makes an ace vs. not an ace.
Click to expand...

Minor pitched 7 innings or more with 100 or less pitches 8 times this past season. He just didn't actually get many opportunities to throw a complete game.
 
Price is a 4 win pitcher. Talk to me when Minor does that. The 2 aren't comparable at this point.
 
nsacpi said:
For anyone that thinks that Wil Myers for James Shields was not a bad trade let me break it down by looking at the "surplus value" the two principal players involved are likely to generate during the years they are under contractual control.

Myers put up a WAR of 2.4 in 2013 in 88 games. The Rays were careful about starting his service time clock, which means he probably has three more pre-arb seasons. I'll be conservative and assume an average WAR of 3.5 during those three years. So counting the 2.4 WAR from this year a total war of 12.9 during his prearb years. Salaries are very low in those years (he'll get paid about 2M during those four years). So total surplus value in pre-arb years will be around 12.5.

What about the arb years. As a rough approximation players get paid half their value in their arb years. I think it is conservative to assume Myers will average 4 WAR per year during those three years. "Surplus value" per year will be 2. Total 6. Total pre-arb and arb years 18.5.

Now lets move on to James Shield. The return on the first year is already in. He was a 4.5 WAR player this year. That's actually a little better than what you would have expected from his track record. He matched his career high. He got paid 9M, or about what a 2 WAR player would get in the open market. So a surplus of 2.5 WAR this year. Next year he gets paid 12M. So with a similar performance the surplus would be about 2 WAR, which brings the grand total to 4.5.

So during their years of contractual control Wil Myers has an expected "surplus value" of 18.5 WAR and James Shields 4.5 WAR. That ladies and gentlemen is called being taken to the cleaners, among other things.
Click to expand...

It was a classic now-for-later trade with the two principals involved. Shields is money in the bank. Myers projects well but it's not a lead pipe cinch. Royals were up a dozen games 2012 to 2013. The improvement wasn't totally attributable to Shields, but it sure didn't hurt. Not to dredge things up, but this deal is a lot like our deal for Teixeira. I think where the Royals got totally jobbed was on the other guys. No way you give up Montgomery, Odorizzi, and Leonard for Wade Davis (and Eliot Johnson as the PTNBL).
 
50PoundHead said:
It was a classic now-for-later trade with the two principals involved. Shields is money in the bank. Myers projects well but it's not a lead pipe cinch. Royals were up a dozen games 2012 to 2013. The improvement wasn't totally attributable to Shields, but it sure didn't hurt. Not to dredge things up, but this deal is a lot like our deal for Teixeira. I think where the Royals got totally jobbed was on the other guys. No way you give up Montgomery, Odorizzi, and Leonard for Wade Davis (and Eliot Johnson as the PTNBL).
Click to expand...

Yea that's what makes it completely unbalanced. Lulz at Elliot being the PTBNL. I had no idea.
 
50PoundHead said:
It was a classic now-for-later trade with the two principals involved. Shields is money in the bank. Myers projects well but it's not a lead pipe cinch. Royals were up a dozen games 2012 to 2013. The improvement wasn't totally attributable to Shields, but it sure didn't hurt. Not to dredge things up, but this deal is a lot like our deal for Teixeira. I think where the Royals got totally jobbed was on the other guys. No way you give up Montgomery, Odorizzi, and Leonard for Wade Davis (and Eliot Johnson as the PTNBL).
Click to expand...

That's my point as well. The Shields for Myers part is not that bad. They were a much better team this year primarily due to Shields. And they signed him to an extension, so it's not quite like the Tex deal. The Odorizzi/Davis part was worse.
 
PawPawMaxwell said:
Would the Red Sox go against their history and put two LH starters in their rotation considering the Green Monster???
Click to expand...

They still play 81 road games. I honestly don't know what they would do, but they have the prospects to get a deal done if they want in on the sweepstakes.
 
If the Rays offered him, I think Boston would be more than glad to put aside the Green Monster if it meant not having to face Price in potential key games down the stretch. At the same time, that is the deal where Tampa would need to ask for the moon.
 
gilesfan said:
Price is a 4 win pitcher. Talk to me when Minor does that. The 2 aren't comparable at this point.
Click to expand...

I mean... Minor was 3.1 in his 2nd full year this past season. It's not hard to imagine Minor having a 4 WAR season in the future. Last year they were pretty similar and Minor may have actually been a bit better.

I know that Price has been significantly better than Minor in year's past, but he's also been pretty inconsistent year to year.
 
MInor could.

But, in no shape or form was he better last year. Or really that close.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top