The Trump Presidency

sturg33 said:
Is it fair to say that Western culture has been better for human rights, liberty, and economic prosperity?
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I would say there are many aspects of the enlightenment and western culture that are highly admirable and worthy of preservation. I would also say that Stephen Miller and Donald Trump do not strike me as being the kind of people who have a good understanding of those parts of western culture worthy of defense and preservation. As an example I would cite their apparent lack of appreciation of the distinction between dissent and disloyalty. ymmv
 
nsacpi said:
I would say there are many aspects of the enlightenment and western culture that are highly admirable and worthy of preservation. I would also say that Stephen Miller and Donald Trump do not strike me as being the kind of people who have a good understanding of those parts of western culture worthy of defense and preservation. As an example I would cite their apparent lack of appreciation of the distinction between dissent and disloyalty. ymmv
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What they are fighting against is a direct risk to all those things that you believe is highly admirable and worth of preservation.
 
thethe said:
What they are fighting against is a direct risk to all those things that you believe is highly admirable and worth of preservation.
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I know...saving us from a descent into a venezuelan-style apocalypse...thank God miller and trump are there to save us
 
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nsacpi said:
I would say there are many aspects of the enlightenment and western culture that are highly admirable and worthy of preservation. I would also say that Stephen Miller and Donald Trump do not strike me as being the kind of people who have a good understanding of those parts of western culture worthy of defense and preservation. As an example I would cite their apparent lack of appreciation of the distinction between dissent and disloyalty. ymmv
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I just think it's hilarious that saying western culture is good somehow is racist these days. Arab countries and east asian countries are notorious for human rights violations... yet modern day progressives favor their "culture" over western simply because that seems to be the woke thing to do.

ymmv
 
sturg33 said:
I just think it's hilarious that saying western culture is good somehow is racist these days. Arab countries and east asian countries are notorious for human rights violations... yet modern day progressives favor their "culture" over western simply because that seems to be the woke thing to do.

ymmv
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I think by now Miller and Trump have enough of a track record that it should not be too difficult to understand that saving western culture to them means stopping the browning of America. When Trump, Bannon, and Miller use that kind of language about saving western civilization it is code for something racist and xenophobic. Appreciating and preserving the good things about our political and cultural heritage is something that people of all backgrounds are capable of, whether from Norway or ****hole countries.

Trump himself has done incalculable damage to our civic life and institutions. It would be wrong to say just because he is white that in general white people are seeking do the same or that they need to go back where they came from. It would be also wrong to use a kind of rhetorical code to suggest that.
 
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More spending helps the economy in the short term so no, Trump will never cut spending. The trick they have learned is to push fiscal responsibility when Democrats are in office to suppress the economy and then spend like drunken sailors when Republicans are in office for that short term economy boost. If you want fiscal responsibility, vote for a Democratic President and Republican Congressman.
 
sturg33 said:
So uh... Trump ever gonna cut any spending, thethe?
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Doesnt appear so.

But in reality usage on entitlements are down and the majority of the chinese tariffs are being paid for by the chineae so at least more funds are available without raising taxes.
 
thethe said:
What they are fighting against is a direct risk to all those things that you believe is highly admirable and worth of preservation.
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One of the things that makes western cultural ideals so great is the fact that it allows those risks to exist unfettered (unless it becomes violent or something like that). I'm not a Trump derangement syndrome person, but I think its pretty clear that Trump really doesn't value the western ideal of civil dissent and the open debate of differing ideals. He's petty and dismissive of people who don't fall in line. To be fair to Trump, that seems to be fairly common amongst many politicians nowadays on either side of the aisle. I would say that the members of the squad really aren't any better in that regard.

I'm not as alarmist about Trump as nsacpi and I don't hate the guy as much as Julio or Runnin, but I'm certainly no fan of the man and there is no way he'll get my vote in 2020. Other than what he's done to the nature of civil discourse, the most unforgivable thing Trump has done in my eyes is what he has turned the Republican party into. Before Trump the party was moving closer and closer to a libertarian oriented, market oriented party that was leaving their outdated social views in the rear view mirror. Once Trump arrived, they replaced the outdated social views with other, different outdated social views. They went from a economically liberal party to one that is some weird hybrid of populism and protectionism. They went from an individual-first libertarian predisposition to one that is perfectly comfortable falling in line behind the demagogue, leaving him to do his thing, mostly unchallenged. I also see the squad doing something similar to the Democratic party, but in a different, more identitarian way.

I could never see myself voting for any of the Democrats in this current field, aside from maybe Andrew Yang despite some serious economic disagreements. But I also don't think I'll ever be able to vote for a Republican again, outside of a few members who still maintained to hold onto their principles through this administration. I guess I'll just end up voting futilely as a Libertarian, but I've felt politically homeless through this administration.
 
BeanieAntics said:
One of the things that makes western cultural ideals so great is the fact that it allows those risks to exist unfettered (unless it becomes violent or something like that). I'm not a Trump derangement syndrome person, but I think its pretty clear that Trump really doesn't value the western ideal of civil dissent and the open debate of differing ideals. He's petty and dismissive of people who don't fall in line. To be fair to Trump, that seems to be fairly common amongst many politicians nowadays on either side of the aisle. I would say that the members of the squad really aren't any better in that regard.

I'm not as alarmist about Trump as nsacpi and I don't hate the guy as much as Julio or Runnin, but I'm certainly no fan of the man and there is no way he'll get my vote in 2020. Other than what he's done to the nature of civil discourse, the most unforgivable thing Trump has done in my eyes is what he has turned the Republican party into. Before Trump the party was moving closer and closer to a libertarian oriented, market oriented party that was leaving their outdated social views in the rear view mirror. Once Trump arrived, they replaced the outdated social views with other, different outdated social views. They went from a economically liberal party to one that is some weird hybrid of populism and protectionism. They went from an individual-first libertarian predisposition to one that is perfectly comfortable falling in line behind the demagogue, leaving him to do his thing, mostly unchallenged. I also see the squad doing something similar to the Democratic party, but in a different, more identitarian way.

I could never see myself voting for any of the Democrats in this current field, aside from maybe Andrew Yang despite some serious economic disagreements. But I also don't think I'll ever be able to vote for a Republican again, outside of a few members who still maintained to hold onto their principles through this administration. I guess I'll just end up voting futilely as a Libertarian, but I've felt politically homeless through this administration.
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Trump doesnt want to fundamentally change America. Those he is 'against' do.

He is not perfect by any stretch but the traditional republican/libertarian leaning candidate was getting crushed by the democratic propoganda machine.

Without Trump we have an activist supreme/district court system, strangling regulation that drove down the economy, more wars, china continuing to crush everyday Americans and more open border mindset to displace Americans that dont want socialism.

So for all libertarians that wont vote for trump I ask you...do you want to live in a progressively ruled nation?
 
thethe said:
Trump doesnt want to fundamentally change America. Those he is 'against' do.

He is not perfect by any stretch but the traditional republican/libertarian leaning candidate was getting crushed by the democratic propoganda machine.

Without Trump we have an activist supreme/district court system, strangling regulation that drove down the economy, more wars, china continuing to crush everyday Americans and more open border mindset to displace Americans that dont want socialism.

So for all libertarians that wont vote for trump I ask you...do you want to live in a progressively ruled nation?
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For your first sentence, that doesn't address my point at all. It doesn't matter if someone wipes their own ass with flag, pisses on the declaration of independence, calls George Washington a fairy, and relentlessly pushes Maoist policy. The president should still treat that person with the respect that an American citizen deserves.

I'm not sure why you think the Republicans were getting destroyed before Trump. They pretty decisively won the 2014 midterms. Even if they had been getting crushed and Trump was the only solution to stop them, I still wouldn't have voted for him. I knew what the alternative was in 2016 and I still didn't vote for him. I don't want to live under a leftist president at all, but I'm not going to vote for someone whose rhetoric I find divisive and whose policies I find misguided and dangerous. He's done some good things, but he's also done a LOT of damage to the social fabric of this country. He's not alone in damaging the social fabric, but he's certainly a part of it.

I'll address your last point similarly. I don't vote strategically and I'll always put my principles before convenience. I know that the economy is performing pretty well under Trump and I think a leftist candidate would be really bad for the country. But are we honestly going to sit here and pretend that the social climate he's fostered isn't an absolute living nightmare? You have people on the left calling a potato racist and people on the right trying to figure out ways to excuse actual racism to protect their boy. You have leftist extremists in Portland beating right leaning gay journalists and white nationalist extremists mowing down people in their car in Charlottesville. You have leftist extremists actively calling for the censorship of people they deem outside the Overton Window and right wingers calling legitimate protests Un-American.

Its a freaking nightmare and I can't wait until we wake up from it.
 
BeanieAntics said:
For your first sentence, that doesn't address my point at all. It doesn't matter if someone wipes their own ass with flag, pisses on the declaration of independence, calls George Washington a fairy, and relentlessly pushes Maoist policy. The president should still treat that person with the respect that an American citizen deserves.

I'm not sure why you think the Republicans were getting destroyed before Trump. They pretty decisively won the 2014 midterms. Even if they had been getting crushed and Trump was the only solution to stop them, I still wouldn't have voted for him. I knew what the alternative was in 2016 and I still didn't vote for him. I don't want to live under a leftist president at all, but I'm not going to vote for someone whose rhetoric I find divisive and whose policies I find misguided and dangerous. He's done some good things, but he's also done a LOT of damage to the social fabric of this country. He's not alone in damaging the social fabric, but he's certainly a part of it.

I'll address your last point similarly. I don't vote strategically and I'll always put my principles before convenience. I know that the economy is performing pretty well under Trump and I think a leftist candidate would be really bad for the country. But are we honestly going to sit here and pretend that the social climate he's fostered isn't an absolute living nightmare? You have people on the left calling a potato racist and people on the right trying to figure out ways to excuse actual racism to protect their boy. You have leftist extremists in Portland beating right leaning gay journalists and white nationalist extremists mowing down people in their car in Charlottesville. You have leftist extremists actively calling for the censorship of people they deem outside the Overton Window and right wingers calling legitimate protests Un-American.

Its a freaking nightmare and I can't wait until we wake up from it.
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What makes you think you’ll wake up from it anytime soon? The left is imploding.
 
Tough to argue with anything Beanie is saying.

My only thoughts on Trump is he hasn't started a new entitlement... and he hasn't started a new war. Nothing he has done is really irrevocable. Plus he and Mitch have done a really good job of filling the courts with more limited government judges, which is a long term win.

The same can't be said for all of the dem candidates
 
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