2021 BA Top 100

Southcack77 said:
I understand that right now Inciarte is probably about as good as we are going to get. It's a ****ty situation that some people feel the need to put rainbow stickers on. I don't. If that bothers you, I'm sorry. He's not a good player any more. He shouldn't get on the field except as a defensive replacement and it's not even clear whether he is still particularly good at defense. We'll see. Well I hope we won't, but we almost certainly will.


......But it almost sounded for a minute like you were asking me to what better use I could have put Ender Inciarte's 8m dollar salary to for a second there. That couldn't possibly have been what you were asking, so I'll just move on.
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i'll ask yet again, who is putting "rainbow stickers" on anything Ender-related, and where? again, your irrationality is showing.
saying he could put up ~2 WAR is very reasonable and doesn't require a single "rainbow sticker."
the Braves, wisely, don't believe he's definitely only a defensive replacement after one down year. the fact you seem to think it's impossible for him to rebound to a solid player just shows your irrationality...again.
you inisist Ender is toast because you want to be right. it's just dumb. players have down seasons all the time and rebound fine. there's plenty of reason to believe Ender can do the same.

Joc Pederson, a strict platoon bat who can't play a premium position, signed for $7M for one year. you seem to think a lot of similar players are much better than Ender, but i'm just not as delusional.

you also, again, said a 2.9 WAR player wasn't desirable for $4.7M. i'll continue to not ignore that, because it's objectively stupid.
 
Kevin Pillar signed for $5M. in 2019, Ender put up 0.5 less WAR in less than the half the amount of games.
outpaced him easily in 2017 and 2018.
ZIPS has them projected for the same WAR.
 
Super said:
i'll ask yet again, who is putting "rainbow stickers" on anything Ender-related, and where? again, your irrationality is showing.
saying he could put up ~2 WAR is very reasonable and doesn't require a single "rainbow sticker."
the Braves, wisely, don't believe he's definitely only a defensive replacement after one down year. the fact you seem to think it's impossible for him to rebound to a solid player just shows your irrationality...again.
you inisist Ender is toast because you want to be right. it's just dumb. players have down seasons all the time and rebound fine. there's plenty of reason to believe Ender can do the same.

Joc Pederson, a strict platoon bat who can't play a premium position, signed for $7M for one year. you seem to think a lot of similar players are much better than Ender, but i'm just not as delusional.

you also, again, said a 2.9 WAR player wasn't desirable for $4.7M. i'll continue to not ignore that, because it's objectively stupid.
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When you start flailing, you have a tendency to make up arguments for the other person.

You can do what you want, but just know I didn't say that.

I don't have a vested interest in being right about Ender, because I've already been right. Literally every single poster here would cut him if it meant that we didn't have to pay him. Every single one.

Unfortunately the Braves can't just cut him and his salary has prevented the Braves from spending his 8-9m more productively. Which every single person here would be immediately happy to do.

The Braves would be better off with Joc Pederson, Eddie Rosario, or Adam Eaton. 9m + whatever the Braves have left over could perhaps have landed players who could have made a real impact.

If we're talking about a defense only replacement, there are any number of guys who could have been had under 3m and can play CF or two innings in left just as effectively. Almost anyone would have been a better pinch hitter off the bench.

But, that's not the reality we live in. So I'm sure we'll all hope that Ender turns back the clock three years and is a below average offensive player that plays a plus CF. But no one really thinks he will do that or play enough to be anywhere near a 2 win player at this point.

We're just talking a defensive replacement or I guess some people want to send a better player down for a month to get a year of control that may or may not be important 5 or 6 years from now. It's logical enough, but Ender Inciarte starting games for Atlanta is a failure by the front office. In fairness, it's not a failure of their own creation. It's something they were saddled with by the prior regime thinking giving out extensions to non-elite players past their prime was a great idea.

I don't really know why this made you so mad, but it's ok.
 
Super said:
Kevin Pillar signed for $5M. in 2019, Ender put up 0.5 less WAR in less than the half the amount of games.
outpaced him easily in 2017 and 2018.
ZIPS has them projected for the same WAR.
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Too bad we can't cut Ender and use the 4m dollar difference to sign another roster piece.
 
Southcack77 said:
There is no "wanting" to be right about Ender about it.

I was right.

There is is not a single soul who wouldn't trade him for a bag of poo if the Braves could shed his salary.

His PT should be limited to being a defensive replacement and then only if he's recovered from the brain damage he appeared to have suffered last season. Ideally, your defensive replacement only OF should cost more like the league minimum than 8m dollars but no sense worrying about that.
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This is correct, but factually not a possibility. We're going to be paying Ender his $9M this year. Why not use him to stand in CF, hit .110 for a month (or .310) and potentially save us serious cash on Pache six years on?

I think it's unlikely but possible that he can still play a little. If that's right, we get a little something for our sunken cost as well as slowing Pache's clock, at least under current rules.

If that's wrong, bury him on May 1.

Roster management 101.
 
GovClintonTyree said:
This is correct, but factually not a possibility. We're going to be paying Ender his $9M this year. Why not use him to stand in CF, hit .110 for a month (or .310) and potentially save us serious cash on Pache six years on?

I think it's unlikely but possible that he can still play a little. If that's right, we get a little something for our sunken cost as well as slowing Pache's clock, at least under current rules.

If that's wrong, bury him on May 1.

Roster management 101.
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I think it's just 2 weeks to get the extra year on Pache but yes i can see that.
 
mfree80 said:
Earlier we were told it was more like 2 months. Which is it really?
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Pache was on the MLB roster for 7-8 days, which equals 19-22 days of service time. Prospects are usually kept down for about 12 days to gain the extra year of control.

Pache would have to stay in AAA for roughly 31-34 days to gain the extra year. That would be the TOR series in early May. That’s an away series in an AL park and would be a perfect excuse to call up an extra OFer.

If Ender proves to be toast in ST, I think Pache has to break camp with the MLB team. The NL will be too close to live with Ender in CF for a month if he’s done.
 
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GovClintonTyree said:
This is correct, but factually not a possibility. We're going to be paying Ender his $9M this year. Why not use him to stand in CF, hit .110 for a month (or .310) and potentially save us serious cash on Pache six years on?

I think it's unlikely but possible that he can still play a little. If that's right, we get a little something for our sunken cost as well as slowing Pache's clock, at least under current rules.

If that's wrong, bury him on May 1.

Roster management 101.
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A month of a below replacement value starter in an expected pennant chase could possibly make the difference between making the playoffs or not making the playoffs. Not coming down on the side of promoter or demoter, just pointing out the risk.

It's an open question whether Pache should be a MLB starter at this point, I guess. But if you think he is, I think you play him on opening day.

We had a big long conversation about Dansby and that bill is I suppose coming due in a year or so, but shrug emoji. Putting your best team on the field is a small sacrifice to being in a contention window, IMO, when the alternative is bad.

But maybe Inciarte will for some reason turn back the hands of time or get lucky. Whatever, they want to do. It's their party.
 
Super said:
too bad Ender wasn't cut after 2017 like you suggested and the Braves had to deal with paying him $5M for 2.9 WAR.
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See previous post about you making up things to argue with.

Inciarte's money is a sunk cost. No getting around it. Coppy effed up and it has a consequence.

Of course, they're going to try and make the best of the situation.

It sucks that they have to.

Which you know.

that's all it is.

If you want to believe that Inciarte turns back the clock to his "glory days" then good on you. That's totally acceptable fan behavior and I hope it works out for you.

It will make me feel better too. And I'll be content knowing that something came out of a bad situation.

It is what it is.
 
Super said:
too bad Ender wasn't cut after 2017 like you suggested and the Braves had to deal with paying him $5M for 2.9 WAR.
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seriously, what the hell are you talking about here?

The Braves' original control ran through the 2020 season. Why would the Braves have cut him in 2017? Why do you think I suggested that they should have? So bizarre.

I guess the glimmer of something that would make sense is that if they hadn't have extended him the arbitration number might have been higher? I think that's a dubious claim as to 2018, but it would sort resemble a point?
 
Southcack77 said:
seriously, what the hell are you talking about here?

The Braves' original control ran through the 2020 season. Why would the Braves have cut him in 2017? Why do you think I suggested that they should have? So bizarre.

I guess the glimmer of something that would make sense is that if they hadn't have extended him the arbitration number might have been higher? I think that's a dubious claim as to 2018, but it would sort resemble a point?
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you said he stopped being "desirable" after 2017, the last time he was average against RHP. which is incredibly dumb.
 
i just don't understand the vendetta against Ender. again, he must've banged your wife or something. it's completely reasonable that after literally *one* bad short season that he'll rebound a bit. it's like you're mad i don't think he's completely toast, but in reality it's a silly thing you're so confident on. i don't think the point is making it's way thru your head at all, considering you keep referencing "confidence" in Ender that nobody has. you seem to think it's some albatross that will sink the Braves. it's just bizarre. we're one season off from him *easily* pacing 2+ WAR (which i understand is not "desirable" to you if it doesn't include the arbitrary standard of average hitting vs RHP (???)).

i reckon he'd have made more in '18 & '19 despite undesirable back-to-back 2.9 WAR seasons. $8.7M is not some insane number for a guy most rational people can reasonably hope will put up ~2 WAR. it won't be some miracle if he does. it's pretty standard stuff.
 
To be fair ender has had more than one bad short season. He was trending down. We can say injury this and injury that but if you look at his numbers since his all star season and they are steadily going down into god awful status. You can say 2019 was because of injury but really we just don’t know. All we know is he has been below average at the plate for 3 season now and it is getting worse every year.
 
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