Ukraine

I mean, can we just pause and reflect for a moment: Russia is about to ****ing invade Ukraine, a sovereign nation.

What gives them the right to do this?
 
yeezus said:
We could probably hurt Russia pretty good economically.
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Or we could push them almost exclusively into dealings with the Chinese.

There is no clear cut path here, unfortunately.

More radical, yet less 'physical' methods; cyber-terrorism, visa tightening, cultural warfare.
 
Krgrecw said:
Nuclear war is a joke. Don't you think they'd die too? What benefit would they have?

Also goldfly care to admit that Palin was right about this? Instead of calling her an idiot , with personal attacks, was she right or wrong?
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Yes they know they'd die too but back a rat into a corner and he'll do everything he can to survive.
 
Doing nothing is a dangerous proposition as well. Russia and their best friend China are takling right now thinking Europe/US are weak. They want to be the big boys on the block and it only takes one dangerous/charasmatic man to pull China into a conflict.
 
Hawk said:
Or we could push them almost exclusively into dealings with the Chinese.

There is no clear cut path here, unfortunately.

More radical, yet less 'physical' methods; cyber-terrorism, visa tightening, cultural warfare.
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Cultural Warfare is the way to go. Cyber terrorism is not that important against the russians.
 
thethe said:
Doing nothing is a dangerous proposition as well. Russia and their best friend China are takling right now thinking Europe/US are weak. They want to be the big boys on the block and it only takes one dangerous/charasmatic man to pull China into a conflict.
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China needs the US and Europe, they'll abandon Russia in no time.
 
yeezus said:
Ok then, I'm curious. I want to completely stay out of it. Intervention, to me, is not tolerable.

To those who don't necessarily feel this: What do you propose that we do? What are the consequences, and what is it worth to you?
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1. Begin full-scale diplomacy with the new Ukrainian leadership. Very public, very open, very clear on principles.

2. Revisit and strengthen the cooperative language of the 2008 agreement.

3. Place US troops in Poland on high alert. Don't move them though to the Poland/Ukraine border.

4. Constant multi-channel communications with Putin and the Russian government.

5. Strengthen our strong relations with Turkey.

6. Russia's leverage is in great part due to natural gas. And European countries are very vulnerable. Promoting any Western or other alternatives that can't be as easily manipulated/controlled by another country should have a heightened priority.

7. Continue to help develop Moldova. Oh yes, we are there.
 
zitothebrave said:
China needs the US and Europe, they'll abandon Russia in no time.
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Nations with strong centralized governments tend to do odd things. There is no way we can sit here and predict exactly what China wants to do. These Eastern Nations do not like the way the West lives. There is deep rooted resentment involved here.
 
Hawk said:
I mean, can we just pause and reflect for a moment: Russia is about to ****ing invade Ukraine, a sovereign nation.

What gives them the right to do this?
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Why should WE get involved? You know the other countries will stand back and let us take the financial and flesh costs. We are slowly destroying ourselves. We've thrown too much money and too many bodies away already.
 
Dalyn said:
Why should WE get involved? You know the other countries will stand back and let us take the financial and flesh costs. We are slowly destroying ourselves. We've thrown too much money and too many bodies away already.
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Do you believe that doing nothing though strengthens or weakens our enemies?
 
zitothebrave said:
China needs the US and Europe, they'll abandon Russia in no time.
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This is actually a good point. I think we have to leverage China against Russia and at other times Russia against China or India and Europe against one of them. It's a constant chess game. We just need good chess players.
 
thethe said:
Do you believe that doing nothing though strengthens or weakens our enemies?
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I think if we do nothing someone else will (for a change). Everyone sits back and waits for us to pay the price right now. I GUARANTEE you every country considers that aspect before taking any action.
 
Hawk said:
I mean, can we just pause and reflect for a moment: Russia is about to ****ing invade Ukraine, a sovereign nation.

What gives them the right to do this?
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Nothing gives them this right, as far as I'm concerned.
But that doesn't mean I think we should get involved militarily.
 
Dalyn said:
Why should WE get involved? You know the other countries will stand back and let us take the financial and flesh costs. We are slowly destroying ourselves. We've thrown too much money and too many bodies away already.
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Dalyn, I very much appreciate this sentiment. And I wish we could do this. But my suspicion - and that's all that it is - is that the costs could be even higher with taking the isolationist route.
 
Dalyn said:
I think if we do nothing someone else will (for a change). Everyone sits back and waits for us to pay the price right now. I GUARANTEE you every country considers that aspect before taking any action.
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Its certainly possible but Europe doesn't do anything unless US leads the way. Its the sad truth. NOBODY wants to go to war and I hope that this doesn't escalate to that but if this is just swept into the rug I don't see what is to stop Russia in a couple of years from doing this again.

Also, a move like this can encourage terrorist groups around the world that the West is weak. This is a very dangerous move that is being made right now. I don't think any response is the right one and thats scary.
 
thethe said:
Its certainly possible but Europe doesn't do anything unless US leads the way. Its the sad truth. NOBODY wants to go to war and I hope that this doesn't escalate to that but if this is just swept into the rug I don't see what is to stop Russia in a couple of years from doing this again.

Also, a move like this can encourage terrorist groups around the world that the West is weak. This is a very dangerous move that is being made right now. I don't think any response is the right one and thats scary.
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We ARE weak. Stretched thin. That's the truth. Someone else has to take point.
 
Ukraine is not worth WWIII. I think even Russia probably feels that way.
Can't see China ditching us to solely back Russia. They need us way too much.
 
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