DOTW: Underrated Careers in Baseball Recently.

Todd Helton and the vastly underrated Albert Belle

Belle had back to back seasons that rivaled anyone's.
 
zitothebrave said:
With retirements from Chipper Jones, Derek Jeter and Mo RIvera we here about first ballot HOFers etc. But who do see being say the Bert Blyleven of this group/era.

Some candidates for me.

1. Scott Rolen. He'll likely wind up in the hall by voting because of his defense. But aside from being a great defender he was pretty awesome offensively as well. Sure he wasn't Chipper, Walker, Thomas, etc. But well above average to go with best defensive 3B of the generation.

2. Andruw Jones - Won't make the HOF most likely, but absolutely deserves it. Small list of qualifications, best defensive CF of all time coupled with 400+ HRs and 150+ SB.

3. Bobby Abreu - Should be considered a borderline HOF candidate but isn't. Abreu sucked defensively. But overall, he's a better career than Jeff Kent and vlad Guerrero who may wind up inthe hall.

4. Curt Schilling - 4th best pitcher from 1990 on, finished behind Lee freaking Smith.
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Bobby Abreu was better than Vladimir Guerrero as a player? I totally disagree. Guerrero was the complete package as a player.

zitothebrave said:
Honestly I'm on the fence with Walker.

But the reason he doesn't get respect is because he didn't hit any of the big marks despite playing in Coors for nearly a decade. Obviously his slash line rocks, but that was largely helped by his Coors play which boosted his average.

There's also a red flag since he posted one of the best seasons of his career at 34 in the tail end of the roid era.

That said I'd put him in, but he's recognized for his abilities (JMO) more than the guys above him.
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Larry Walker was also a great defender and baserunner which helps his case.
 
AUTiger7222 said:
Bobby Abreu was better than Vladimir Guerrero as a player? I totally disagree. Guerrero was the complete package as a player..
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Vlad's defense was grossly overrated because he has a bazooka for an arm. Once his athleticism started falling his defense went down south fast.
 
Albert Belle was Albert Pujols before Albert Pujols was Albert Pujols. That guy, even though he was a class A ahole could mash.

Here are other guys that are on my list:

Mike Mussina

Curt Schiling

Gary Sheffield

Kevin Brown

Edgar Martinez

Robin Ventura

Scott Rolen

Moises Alou

Jim Thome

Larry Walker

Ellis Burks

David justice

David cone

Jim Edmonds

Brad Radke

Paul Oneill

Andres Galarraga

Fred Mcgriff
 
zitothebrave said:
Vlad's defense was grossly overrated because he has a bazooka for an arm. Once his athleticism started falling his defense went down south fast.
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Even with that being the case, I would still take him as a player over Abreu. Look at Vlad's peak years from 1998-2008.

fWAR

1998 - 6.7

1999 - 4.5

2000 - 6.2

2001 - 4.8

2002 - 7.3

2003 - 3.2

2004 - 6.1

2005 - 5.4

2006 - 3.6

2007 - 3.2

2008 - 2,4

TOTAL - 53.4

Bobby Abreu's peak years were 1998-2010. So he has a 2 year advantage over Vlad there.

1998 - 6.5

1999 - 6.3

2000 - 6.9

2001 - 5.3

2002 - 5.1

2003 - 5.5

2004 - 5.3

2005 - 3.7

2006 - 3.5

2007 - 3.1

2008 - 1.5

2009 - 2.7

2010 - 2.4

TOTAL - 57.8 (52.7 from 1998-2008)

I'm actually a little surprised by Abreu's fWAR. He was better than I remember.
 
Millwood1Hitter said:
Albert Belle was Albert Pujols before Albert Pujols was Albert Pujols. That guy, even though he was a class A ahole could mash.

Here are other guys that are on my list:

Mike Mussina
Curt Schiling
Gary Sheffield
Kevin Brown
Edgar Martinez
Robin Ventura
Scott Rolen
Moises Alou
Jim Thome
Larry Walker
Ellis Burks
David justice
David cone
Jim Edmonds
Brad Radke
Paul Oneill
Andres Galarraga
Fred Mcgriff
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Great list! Totally agree with you on all those guys. I just imagine the win total Radke could have had had he been pitching for a good team like the Yankees all those years instead of mostly average to bad Twins teams. I also don't understand why Moises Alou doesn't get more love. He just got knocked off the ballot for receiving less than 5% of the votes.
 
Gold Glove is an "icing on the cake."

zitothebrave said:
As far as awards Druw was a 10 time Gold Glove, 5 time All-Star and should have won the MVP in 05. I was hoping he'd stick around in the majors a few years to get to 500 homers to solidify his case. Would have probably taken 4 more years to get there. Maybe 5.
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With the qualifications that you listed, Dale Murphy won GG 5x, was AS 7x and MVP twice. He is off the ballot. Only 3 multiple MVP award winner are not in the Hall. For those 2 seasons, Murph was among the most feared hitters in baseball. He was absolutely among the best of the best. Outside of defense, which you're overrating as far as appeal to HOF voters, Andruw Jones was never held in the esteem outside of Atlanta.
 
Knucksie said:
Gold Glove is an "icing on the cake."

With the qualifications that you listed, Dale Murphy won GG 5x, was AS 7x and MVP twice. He is off the ballot. Only 3 multiple MVP award winner are not in the Hall. For those 2 seasons, Murph was among the most feared hitters in baseball. He was absolutely among the best of the best. Outside of defense, which you're overrating as far as appeal to HOF voters, Andruw Jones was never held in the esteem outside of Atlanta.
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Dale falls just shy. He could have been Sandy Koufax'd in if he had a career ending injury in 88. At that point he had a 44.5 rWAR. Druw was kind of the same, at the end of 2007 was at a 60.9 rWAR then barely added any more after that. But Druw was way better though his collapse than Murph. Murph had some amazing years, but he did all his damage in basically 6 years. Druw had 8 years.

Murph had the offensive clout but his late career collapse lead him to lose that. So his peak was pretty much washed out.

Murphy's career slash line was .265/.346/.469 with 398 homers 1266 RBIs 1197 runs, 161 stolen bases in 9041 plate appearances

Druw's career slashline was .254/.337/.486 with 434 homers 1289 RBIs 1204 runs, 152 stolen bases in 8664 plate appearances.

If you look at the 2 you would say they're close to a push in terms of an eye test. Murph of course played in a less offensive era so you'd see him being better, but Druw is generally regarded as one of the best defenders of all time. Murph isn't. Druw's name is mentioned with Mays and more.

Here's an article from someone who may be a voter or think like a voter.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/lists/all-time-best-center-fielders-in-mlb-history-022711

Every person on that list except Druw and Edmonds is in the Hall.
 
I had always thought Druw would go in the Hall. There almost wasn't a day SportCenter (in its heyday) came on he wasn't doing something insane on there.
 
KeithLockhart said:
I actually think Murphy will get in via veterans committee
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Me too. He'll get in for being a good guy. There are worse players than him in the hall, such as Phil Rizzuto, Bill Mazeroski, Rick Ferrell, and George Kell. So he would'nt be undeserving,

Thought of another name, Joe Torre, Hall of Fame manager should also be in as a player. He is not far behind players like Willie Stargell, Duke Snider, and ahead of guys like Hank Greenberg, Ryan Sandberg, Andre Dawson, and many other Hall of Famers.
 
zitothebrave said:
Me too. He'll get in for being a good guy. There are worse players than him in the hall, such as Phil Rizzuto, Bill Mazeroski, Rick Ferrell, and George Kell. So he would'nt be undeserving,

Thought of another name, Joe Torre, Hall of Fame manager should also be in as a player. He is not far behind players like Willie Stargell, Duke Snider, and ahead of guys like Hank Greenberg, Ryan Sandberg, Andre Dawson, and many other Hall of Famers.
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Totally agree! I made the case a couple years back that Joe Torre should be in as a player.
 
If Ozzie is in then Andruw should get in. One of the best offensive players at his position over 10 years and defense was some of the best all time. I think people view him worse because of the high expectations he set as a prospect/rookie. He was supposed to be what Mike Trout is now.
 
zitothebrave said:
Me too. He'll get in for being a good guy. There are worse players than him in the hall, such as Phil Rizzuto, Bill Mazeroski, Rick Ferrell, and George Kell. So he would'nt be undeserving,

Thought of another name, Joe Torre, Hall of Fame manager should also be in as a player. He is not far behind players like Willie Stargell, Duke Snider, and ahead of guys like Hank Greenberg, Ryan Sandberg, Andre Dawson, and many other Hall of Famers.
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When can the committee vote him in I forgot which years they do it on the vet committee?

Is it possible Smoltz and Murph or Chipper/Murph same year?
 
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