Acuna to AAA

Super said:
You defended his drafting by saying he didn't have a 1st rounder in some years, but that was because of a terrible decision he made. He took a a 42-year old Tom Glavine for 8 starts as a 1st round pick.
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He probably made that deal due to pressure from JS. Same reason Coppy is about to rush our rebuild.
 
rico43 said:
Teams and their scouts do not measure the progress of international players and USA players the same way. The system allows the international guys to be more immersed in the game as opposed to American players who are required (a poor choice of words, agreed) to balance their academic education and, in many cases, other sports.

At age 16, international players are, with few exceptions, more polished ballplayers than their America counterparts.
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I think you made this up.

at the very least you are not factoring in the poverty, level of ball and the adjustment to the USA.

Some of these guys come to the US at 16-17 and therefore get some jump on HS USA kids. But I don't see how it's a blanket difference.
 
Super said:
You defended his drafting by saying he didn't have a 1st rounder in some years, but that was because of a terrible decision he made. He took a a 42-year old Tom Glavine for 8 starts as a 1st round pick.
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i thought the discussion waa about drafting results not broader front office performance ...im happy to discuss either so long as it is understood what the discussion is about
 
sturg33 said:
Well,

- he acquired Upton who was traded for gohara and Fried
- he drafted simmons who was traded for Newcomb
- he drafted Gattis who was traded for Folty
- he drafted Wood who was traded for... nvm
- he drafted Kimbrel who was traded for Wisler

- Our best two prospects we have today were acquired by Wren

I also am confident he was heavily involved in the decision making process prior to 2008
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You're cutting out too much from some of those deals. Unfortunately we had BJ Upton (Wren) and his terrible contract to unload or keep. Both options stunk. Would you like a barf sandwich or a poop sandwich

- 1 year of Upton dealt for Gohara and Fried is pretty good.
- Simmons for Newcomb remains to be seen still
- Fine with Gattis for Folty (& Ruiz who is still 23)
- Wood...yeah nvm
 
nsacpi said:
I will note the following. We did not have a first round pick in 2008 (first pick was in the supplemental round), no second round pick in 2009, no first round pick in 2010 (first pick was in the supplemental round), picked 28th in 2011, picked 21st in 2012, picked 31st in the compensatory round in 2013, and picked 32nd in the compensatory in 2014.

I don't believe that our record was brilliant during those drafts. But I suspect an analysis that took into account the position where we were picking would reveal that it was not so bad.

With respect to the last three drafts (post Wren), we picked much earlier. It remains to be seen how it turns out. I think any analysis would again have to take into account draft position, # of early picks etc. I liked out 2015 draft (2 first round picks, 6 in the first 3 rounds) very much. Much less impressed by our 2016 draft (5 picks in the first 3 rounds including the #3 in the first round). I think 2017 will be somewhere in between.
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nobody has been picked that was as bad as hursh and gilmartin. Those two were terrible at the time of the pick. Maybe I'll give you Minor, who seemed bad at the time but actually turned out well.
 
Super said:
You're cutting out too much from some of those deals. Unfortunately we had BJ Upton (Wren) and his terrible contract to unload or keep. Both options stunk. Would you like a barf sandwich or a poop sandwich

- 1 year of Upton dealt for Gohara and Fried is pretty good.
- Simmons for Newcomb remains to be seen still
- Fine with Gattis for Folty (& Ruiz who is still 23)
- Wood...yeah nvm
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The point I was making was the it was Wren who brought the talent in that allowed us to re-build... + Heyward was the big other piece
 
wren seemed to be hated by the ppl that worked for him and most of the industry.

He did some good things. He was Olivera bad with FA signings and he tended to pick high floor guys in the draft.

I'm not saying Coppy is great but I'm glad Wren is gone.

I would love to see a Braves GM spend real money in FA and it not be a total disaster. When was the last time, the 90s?
 
Russ2dollas said:
nobody has been picked that was as bad as hursh and gilmartin. Those two were terrible at the time of the pick. Maybe I'll give you Minor, who seemed bad at the time but actually turned out well.
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there are bad picks in every draft and Hursh and Gilmartin were bad picks...i don't thing anyone would argue otherwise
 
Russ2dollas said:
wren seemed to be hated by the ppl that worked for him and most of the industry.

He did some good things. He was Olivera bad with FA signings and he tended to pick high floor guys in the draft.

I'm not saying Coppy is great but I'm glad Wren is gone.

I would love to see a Braves GM spend real money in FA and it not be a total disaster. When was the last time, the 90s?
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and im not saying Wren was great...if the stories about the way he managed people are true he deserved to be fired
 
nsacpi said:
i thought the discussion waa about drafting results not broader front office performance ...im happy to discuss either so long as it is understood what the discussion is about
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Well when the broader performance ties strongly into the draft, sure.

my point was not having that 1st rounder can't be used as a defense.
 
sturg33 said:
The point I was making was the it was Wren who brought the talent in that allowed us to re-build... + Heyward was the big other piece
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He was GM for seven years so yeah, that makes sense. We had no farm to speak of, though, because so little was found in the draft/thru trades in his tenure.
 
Super said:
Well when the broader performance ties strongly into the draft, sure.
my point was not having that 1st rounder can't be used as a defense.
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it can't be used as an excuse in a broader discussion of front office performance...it is definitely relevant in assessing the effectiveness of a draft
 
nsacpi said:
there are bad picks in every draft and Hursh and Gilmartin were bad picks...i don't thing anyone would argue otherwise
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true. And the MLB draft is it's own animal.

But you can't screw up with your top picks and keep your job as a GM. Lipka was bad but he was at least toolsy. Hursh was terrible from the jump. Gilmartin too.

Allard may never pitch a major league inning but we know he was a good pick at the time.

Wren will also forever be on my **** list for the Chris Johnson extension.....that was another one that was bad before the ink dried and everyone but Wren knew it. The Uggla one I don't blame him for because I think most ppl thought that was a good move at the time and nobody knew he'd crater. BJ I give 75% blame b/c everyone said it was an overpay and he had big issues with swing and miss but nobody thought he'd become unplayable overnight. KK. Lowe.

Every GM will have bad deals if they work long enough. JS is in the hall of fame and he did the Tex deal. Billy Beane had a book and a movie about him and now I think he might give us a deal on Gray.
 
Russ2dollas said:
But you can't screw up with your top picks and keep your job as a GM. .
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my point was you need to look at where the draft position was...not getting anything out of a pick in the 30-40 range happens quite often and needs to be taken into account in any evaluation of a draft
 
sturg33 said:
By the way, those 5 guys listed above are on pace for about 24 fWAR this year. Amazing group of talent that Wren got us and Coppy leveraged (for an unimpressive return, to be honest)
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That's not an amazing group of talent over 7 years. Especially when you factor in that that's pretty much all he brought in. Plus we should subtract the guys he traded
 
Russ2dollas said:
true. And the MLB draft is it's own animal.

But you can't screw up with your top picks and keep your job as a GM. Lipka was bad but he was at least toolsy. Hursh was terrible from the jump. Gilmartin too.

Allard may never pitch a major league inning but we know he was a good pick at the time.

Wren will also forever be on my **** list for the Chris Johnson extension.....that was another one that was bad before the ink dried and everyone but Wren knew it. The Uggla one I don't blame him for because I think most ppl thought that was a good move at the time and nobody knew he'd crater. BJ I give 75% blame b/c everyone said it was an overpay and he had big issues with swing and miss but nobody thought he'd become unplayable overnight. KK. Lowe.

Every GM will have bad deals if they work long enough. JS is in the hall of fame and he did the Tex deal. Billy Beane had a book and a movie about him and now I think he might give us a deal on Gray.
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oh god, i forgot CJ was Wren. :HeywardWut:
 
Super said:
He was GM for seven years so yeah, that makes sense. We had no farm to speak of, though, because so little was found in the draft/thru trades in his tenure.
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It's not good to have a weak system but it's not so bad when you have a young major league team, which the Braves did.

Wood, Simmons, Kimbrel, Heyward, Upton, Gattis were all young when we traded them. Established, cheap, young major league players is extremely valuable
 
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