Andruw Jones

Tapate50 said:
Whats the offensive mantle have to be for the greatest CF of all time? Surely Druw hit that qualification.
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I mean can it be that high? Ozzie Smith is in the hall of fame. Legendary defender, absolute **** hitter.

The more intersting case for me is Carlos Beltran. Post WWII he is 5th all time in fWAR for CFs, that's great. But he was involved, some say part of orchestration of the Astros cheating scandal. That will make some upset at him.

I assume Andruw will be snubbed because people criminally underrated his defensive ability. Including writers.
 
Tapate50 said:
https://blogs.fangraphs.com/jaws-and-the-2022-hall-of-fame-ballot-andruw-jones/
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Pretty much sums up something I mentioned earlier IMO.

His peak wasn't simply "elite", it was the elite of the elite - by the measurements of the time (Gold Gloves, etc.) he was as good as anyone that ever played the position, and he re-defined the position since there weren't many CFs that also hit for power and in the middle of lineups before then other than the guys everyone considered absolute slam-dunks like Mays and Mantle. Did he flame-out early? Sure. The problem with that argument is that the other elite guys that were successful into their mid- to late-30s didn't get called up or become regulars until they were in their mid- to late-20s while Druw was a regular before his 21st birthday (something that was incredibly more unheard of in those days than it is today).

He was every bit as good (or better) as any other CF during his peak - a period that included Junior, Puckett, Edmonds, Torii Hunter, etc.. - and was one of the most-important contributors to a team that still stands as what's as close to a "dynasty" as we've seen since The Big Red Machine and The A's of the early 70's, a team that had 4 other HOFers.

Who gives a *hit whether the decade you were potentially the best player at your position lasted from the time you were 20-30 or you were 25-35??? Andruw was one of the most important (and best) players at his position for 10 seasons - there aren't many HOFers that can legitimately say their peak was any better for an entire decade - regardless of how old they were during that dominant period.

The people that continue to rely on newer metrics to measure performance are simply trying to justify not voting for him - at the time CFs began to hit in the middle of lineups, there was NEVER a discussion about who was the best that didn't have Druw and Junior as 1A and 1B in some order, numbers be *amned. If Junior was a slam-dunk (and he absolutely was), it's simply unfathomable for me to imagine Druw wasn't right behind him. I realize that many of today's HOF voters (as well as posters here) weren't around for Druw's peak, but I was - and I haven't seen more than a couple players who were as much better objectively at their position for an extended period of time like he was since then. The newer metrics make it easier to compare different generations than it used to be, but if you weren't around to see first-hand just how much better guys like Druw were than the players they played with/against, they just can't paint the entire picture.

If Acuna still performs like the pre-injury Acuna through the end of current Braves' contract and isn't a first-ballot HOFer, there will be a lot of people screaming about how ridiculous that is. Druw was Acuna 30 years ago.
 
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Quick aside, his peak wasn't as good as you're making it out to be. He's basically a full Win per year below Griffey's peak so using the 7 year standard he's 7.6 rWAR behind him. Mike Trout's 7 year is almost 20 higher, Willie Mays is almsot 30 higher, Mantle almost 20 higher.

Andruw's peak is HOF worthy. I'm not hear to put him down. But implying that it's the elite of the elite is plain wrong. Love Andruw, but he's no Willie Mays, he's not Trout, etc.

That being said in a hall with Richie Ashburn, Andrew Dawson, Billy Hamilton, etc. But he's not the S tier you're implying. It's not like he's Chipper Jones or Hank Aaron which is elite of the elite implies.
 
HoF candidacies are usually judged by having a great peak, and sustaining production over a long period of time. This is why round numbers like 3000 and 500 are such easy metrics for HoF players.

This article addresses that: "On the subject of Jones’ fade, his 58.0 WAR through his age-29 season ranks 25th among position players....Jones’ drop-off — a gap of 53.3 WAR between the two segments of his career — is the steepest"

So his candidacy is a balance between an exceptional early peak, and an unprecedented crash and burn (for someone still alive). The fact he didn't fall off the ballot like Lofton and Edmonds did is a good sign voters are taking that early peak into account.
 
clvclv said:
Pretty much sums up something I mentioned earlier IMO.

His peak wasn't simply "elite", it was the elite of the elite - by the measurements of the time (Gold Gloves, etc.) he was as good as anyone that ever played the position, and he re-defined the position since there weren't many CFs that also hit for power and in the middle of lineups before then other than the guys everyone considered absolute slam-dunks like Mays and Mantle. Did he flame-out early? Sure. The problem with that argument is that the other elite guys that were successful into their mid- to late-30s didn't get called up or become regulars until they were in their mid- to late-20s while Druw was a regular before his 21st birthday (something that was incredibly more unheard of in those days than it is today).

He was every bit as good (or better) as any other CF during his peak - a period that included Junior, Puckett, Edmonds, Torii Hunter, etc.. - and was one of the most-important contributors to a team that still stands as what's as close to a "dynasty" as we've seen since The Big Red Machine and The A's of the early 70's, a team that had 4 other HOFers.

Who gives a *hit whether the decade you were potentially the best player at your position lasted from the time you were 20-30 or you were 25-35??? Andruw was one of the most important (and best) players at his position for 10 seasons - there aren't many HOFers that can legitimately say their peak was any better for an entire decade - regardless of how old they were during that dominant period.

The people that continue to rely on newer metrics to measure performance are simply trying to justify not voting for him - at the time CFs began to hit in the middle of lineups, there was NEVER a discussion about who was the best that didn't have Druw and Junior as 1A and 1B in some order, numbers be *amned. If Junior was a slam-dunk (and he absolutely was), it's simply unfathomable for me to imagine Druw wasn't right behind him. I realize that many of today's HOF voters (as well as posters here) weren't around for Druw's peak, but I was - and I haven't seen more than a couple players who were as much better objectively at their position for an extended period of time like he was since then. The newer metrics make it easier to compare different generations than it used to be, but if you weren't around to see first-hand just how much better guys like Druw were than the players they played with/against, they just can't paint the entire picture.

If Acuna still performs like the pre-injury Acuna through the end of current Braves' contract and isn't a first-ballot HOFer, there will be a lot of people screaming about how ridiculous that is. Druw was Acuna 30 years ago.
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Pretty sure most hall of fame voters were around for his peak...and I would guess many if not most of the posters here.

He doesn't get the credit for his defense he deserves and he wasn't flashy particularly. If he'd done a few more Hin Edmonds crashes it might have played better.

When you just look at the counting stats and metrics there are just more impressive numbers ahead of him on hold for rounds. Hurts down ballot candidates.
 
clvclv said:
Druw has to be added now that little Druw sits atop the Pipeline Top 100 Draft Board for 2022. I realize plenty of you hate their FV grades and scouting reports, but their breakdown on him sounds incredibly familiar, no???

https://www.mlb.com/prospects/2022/draft/
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No idea, I stopped reading at this absurd line, "his floor might resemble the career of Mike Cameron".

I seriously doubt his floor is a 50 fWAR player who posted 4 seasons of 5+ fWAR and another 4 seasons of 4+ fWAR. It is almost impossible to take anything that site produces seriously.

FG has a much more level-headed write up of him, and touts him as a toolsy guy who probably needs to tweak his swing to get more pull power.
 
The money quote for me from Fangraphs:

"Read that again: for a nine-year period, only A-Rod and Bonds were more valuable than Jones."

With A-Rod and Bonds being roiders, Jones was the top (as far as we know) clean player in baseball for nearly a decade. He should be in the HOF already.
 
Enscheff said:
No idea, I stopped reading at this absurd line, "his floor might resemble the career of Mike Cameron".

I seriously doubt his floor is a 50 fWAR player who posted 4 seasons of 5+ fWAR and another 4 seasons of 4+ fWAR. It is almost impossible to take anything that site produces seriously.

FG has a much more level-headed write up of him, and touts him as a toolsy guy who probably needs to tweak his swing to get more pull power.
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Yeah. I get wanting to hype up a top prospect but to say someone's floor is a 13 year major league starter is baffling.

That being said if things work out there is a decent chance Andruw's kid winds up being better than him. Andruw got where he was because of his father's teaching. If he's skillful enough to impart that on his son, coupled with modern sports further analytical and advanced training that Andruw's wealth would have access to his son should be better. We've seen this happen with Tatis Jr. And Vlad jr. that the kids can surpass the parents.
 
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