Are the Braves as hopeless as it may seem?

Just a difference in opinion. I thought the team as currently constructed had no chance in the postseason against superior pitching. Therefore, there was no point in my mind to try and compete in 2015 and watch Jason/Justin walk for nothing.

I do think certain teams perform better in the playoffs. You are right there are no magic formulas but a swing and miss team like the Braves has essentially no shot at winning. Now its time to flush the stench of the team for the past few years and rebuild anew with the collective wisdom of a group that consistently had the Braves on the cusp for 15 years.

In 2013, Boston struck out 1,308 times (and didn't have the pitcher batting). Last year, the horrendous Braves offense - with the pitcher batting - struck out 1,369, or an extra .37 Ks per game - which can basically attributed straight to the pitcher.

Point? There is no magical formula.
 
The Giants second starter was either Peavy or Hudson. And I think Vogelsong started a game?

My argument is based on regular season vs. postseason. Those two pitchers are better than the majority of hte pitchers the Braves would face in the regular season. Thats why regular season wins do not mean as much to me. Sometimes, they are games that you should always win.
 
In 2013, Boston struck out 1,308 times (and didn't have the pitcher batting). Last year, the horrendous Braves offense - with the pitcher batting - struck out 1,369, or an extra .37 Ks per game - which can basically attributed straight to the pitcher.

Point? There is no magical formula.

The Red Sox are also able to spend a bagillion dollars. Thats not a fair argument. They also had over 200 AB's more than the Braves. Last years Braves were an embarrassment.
 
The team was already patched a couple of years too long. We wasted cheap years of Heyward/Freeman on completely flawed teams. Its a real shame.

Yep...exactly. The best chance and my favorite team of this era was 2010, that was a really good team, if only the baseball gods would have been nice and we actually would have been healthy and not relying on 3rd string options to fill in late in the season. If we would have been healthy, I felt that we legitamately would have had a good chance at the World Series that year.
 
The Red Sox are also able to spend a bagillion dollars. Thats not a fair argument. They also had over 200 AB's more than the Braves. Last years Braves were an embarrassment.

But they were a swing and miss team.

Also - the Cardinals of 2011 had miserable pitching - and managed to win it all.

Point is? There is no magical formula
 
But they were a swing and miss team.

Also - the Cardinals of 2011 had miserable pitching - and managed to win it all.

Point is? There is no magical formula

No, there is no "magical" formula but the formula the Braves were losing had no chance. It was a pathetic team.
 
Yep...exactly. The best chance and my favorite team of this era was 2010, that was a really good team, if only the baseball gods would have been nice and we actually would have been healthy and not relying on 3rd string options to fill in late in the season. If we would have been healthy, I felt that we legitamately would have had a good chance at the World Series that year.

I still shutter when I remember Wren saying that he didn't think strikeouts mattered.
 
My argument is based on regular season vs. postseason. Those two pitchers are better than the majority of hte pitchers the Braves would face in the regular season. Thats why regular season wins do not mean as much to me. Sometimes, they are games that you should always win.

ERA+:

Hudson 98
Vogelson 87
Linceum 74
Cain 84
Peavy 100

p.s. 100 is average
 
I still shutter when I remember Wren saying that he didn't think strikeouts mattered.

And he was right to an extent...which was they really don't matter if you can't score runs in the first place, which is exactly what we were.

Flawed logic to say the least. It's a little different if you have the talent of say the 2003 Atlanta Braves. But then we saw how that all worked out when we ran into Wood & Prior.
 
You act as if you get a ring if they win a title...

I am a fan because I like watching the games. The games are more enjoyable when my team is winning. If my team is consistently good, and is consistently playing in October, I can't ask for much more from an entertainment perspective.

lol that's funny. Why even root for your teams at all? No matter the sport. What is the point then?
 
So you think the 2010/2012/2013 teams had no chance as constructed?

Yep, only 2010 to me was a legit contender, and that was if we remained healthy, which we didnt. We had a pretty good balanced team with a good rotation, a nasty bullpen, and an ok offense.

2012 & 2013 no...too flawed, too may holes.
 
I still shutter when I remember Wren saying that he didn't think strikeouts mattered.

This is how I picture Wren in the memory of many on this board:

south-park-s14e13c08-burning-man-16x9.jpg
 
So you think the 2010/2012/2013 teams had no chance as constructed?

Hard to remember since we have the benefit of hindsight at this time. I kind of think when Venters went down we lost our real edge. I know that seems small but Venters was a tremendous part of our success.
 
I think the thing about the Red Sox is that they are playing half their games in a band box and when you're building a team to play that often in a park like that, you can tolerate srikeouts to a greater degree.

sturg's point is right though. There is no magic formula. You can win a lot of different ways.

Put me in the camp that thought the Braves patched things together a season or two too long. I don't think we were bad, but I didn't see Wren as having a blueprint for the long term and that always bothered me (admittedly more than most). I thought the combination of tight pursestrings and a declining minor league system were bound to collide. I would have built the team around Heyward and Freeman and slowly brought in guys to surround them on a long term basis.

I think what is happening now is just a re-build one year ahead of when the re-build would have been inevitable. People can agree or disagree with the moves (personally I see a mixed bag), but I we were likely going to be patching things together post-2015. Although I don't have a major beef with the return on Heyward, I was hoping they could find a way to keep him. I was disappointed in the return on J. Upton. I think the Gattis deal will likely turn out best for us on balance of the three major deals.
 
I think the thing about the Red Sox is that they are playing half their games in a band box and when you're building a team to play that often in a park like that, you can tolerate srikeouts to a greater degree.

sturg's point is right though. There is no magic formula. You can win a lot of different ways.

Put me in the camp that thought the Braves patched things together a season or two too long. I don't think we were bad, but I didn't see Wren as having a blueprint for the long term and that always bothered me (admittedly more than most). I thought the combination of tight pursestrings and a declining minor league system were bound to collide. I would have built the team around Heyward and Freeman and slowly brought in guys to surround them on a long term basis.

I think what is happening now is just a re-build one year ahead of when the re-build would have been inevitable. People can agree or disagree with the moves (personally I see a mixed bag), but I we were likely going to be patching things together post-2015. Although I don't have a major beef with the return on Heyward, I was hoping they could find a way to keep him. I was disappointed in the return on J. Upton. I think the Gattis deal will likely turn out best for us on balance of the three major deals.

Actually I think Wren had a blueprint and did an good job in his initial stages as GM. He held to his word and hung on to guys (Hanson, Heyward, Freeman, Kimbrel, Medlen, Simmons, etc) that the organization felt would make an impact. He was also able to acquire good talent for lesser known commodities that the organization developed. He won most trades that he participated it.

He also had some incredibly bad luck. Again, I really liked that 2010 team, but by the end of the year that was about as wounded of troops that one could ever imagine, and yet he still pieced it together. Throughout his tenure, we saw good to great pitching talent going by the wayside due to injuries, and once thought of top of the rotation pieces flamed out.

By 2011-2012, Wren started going away from his framework, though. He had his footprints engraved in the sand as far as player development, and once a strong suit of the organization was stripped and the consequences could not be overlooked. No longer did we have the capability to look to the minors to fill potential needs with good young talent as their just wasn't none. Combine that with, more money in hand than ever, and a willingness to take risks it backfired even more when he tried to out think himself and re-invent the wheel and spend so much on redundant needs. So there we we're, in the mess that he dug himself and this organization into, and the only way out was to completely strip the mantle and start over. No more patches we're big enough to stop the leaking, and no more resources to even come remotely close to solving those issues whether it be in the form of financial flexibility or young talent available to be able to acquire in an area of need.
 
lol that's funny. Why even root for your teams at all? No matter the sport. What is the point then?

Because I'm most familiar with my team and it's the team I root for. And I want them to win. But I would not trade 10 winning seasons (and thus 10 years of good entertainment), for 9 sucky ones and one ring.

If I was a player, I'd probably have a different perspective
 
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