Around Baseball 2024 edition
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bravesfanMatt
Steve Harvey'd
funny how the Braves farm system is excused off because of where they always pick, yet the Dodgers have a perennial top ten farm, yet pick towards the bottom every year as well.. strange how that works when you build an intelligent system top to bottom surrounded by guys who didn't come from the 90's era baseball.
If anyone wants to get me a birthday present (yes, it is coming around the corner soon).. figure a way to find and purge from the Brave's org every coach, scout, player, and FO employee that personally knew Cox
cajunrevenge
Well-known member
Quick, name the best players on the Dodgers in order. Now how many did you name before getting to a homegrown player drafted and developed by the Dodgers?
bravesfanMatt
Steve Harvey'd
Quick, what does that have to do with anything. They have a top 10 farm and have had a top 10 farm for years now. What they do with them means nothing.. who they have on the MLB team means nothing. They draft well and they develop well.
cajunrevenge
Well-known member
They drafted well and developed well but you can't name any good players on their team drafted and developed by them.
bravesfanMatt
Steve Harvey'd
so these I think are just off the top of my head. I could be wrong on some because I am not a Dodger$ expert.
Will Smith
Walker B
Kershaw
Pages
Lux
that Bobby pitcher
Muncy
I think a couple of relievers as well... that is not even counting the number of prospects that they traded away for stars at the deadline.
That org is well run (money can helpo with that).. but they went the way of analytics before it was cool.. the Braves were run by 90's relics and are still influenced by them .. I think AA is a smart man, but I really question how smart. Anyone who still holds on to one of the dumbest men in baseball (twit) then I will continue to question. But back to the orig point, the Braves have some flaw in the draft and development process that needs to be addressed. Excusing it off because of penalties and low draft picks is a lazy way of accepting reality.
cajunrevenge
Well-known member
Kershaw was like 15 years ago. Kind of like giving AA credit for Freeman. Will Smith is good. Beuhler is good. Muncy has been okay. Pages is a rookie with limited upside and jury is still out on Miller. They have been good at churning out relievers. Meanwhile the Braves have Acuna, Albies, Harris, Riley, Strider, and they developed Fried despite not drafting him. The Dodgers 5 best players were all signed in free agency or traded for.
I think cajun is distracting you from your initial point, matt, and is making you argue something that you didn’t really start off trying to argue.
Of course the dodgers are good at drafting and developing. The Braves have been recently as well. But the original point was, they always have a top 10 farm. They have the same “disadvantages” as the Braves (minus the penalties, which I don’t think we can just wholly ignore), but still always have a deep farm that they can draw from either for depth (Pages) or for trades. It’s a huge, important advantage to have. They also always seem to have good position player prospects which as a currency are more valuable imo. The Braves have failed to keep the farm, and specifically the position players, replenished.
Of course the dodgers are good at drafting and developing. The Braves have been recently as well. But the original point was, they always have a top 10 farm. They have the same “disadvantages” as the Braves (minus the penalties, which I don’t think we can just wholly ignore), but still always have a deep farm that they can draw from either for depth (Pages) or for trades. It’s a huge, important advantage to have. They also always seem to have good position player prospects which as a currency are more valuable imo. The Braves have failed to keep the farm, and specifically the position players, replenished.
cajunrevenge
Well-known member
It is not the same. They have an unlimited budget. It's a factor in being able to trade for and keep players. What's the most we ever paid a prospect? The Dodgers just signed one for 300 million.
bravesfanMatt
Steve Harvey'd
yes, and I made that point a few post above that. But to say the Dodger$ are baron of homegrown talent is just not true. Also listing a bunch of Braves that were drafted and developed from the previous regime is not a good counter.. AA put his own people in place for drafting and it has not been great. I think it was Clv or thethe that really hated seeing a few scouts go when AA came in. I don't remember names and don't care to look them up.. but it seemed like AA put his own people in charge of drafting.. so maybe it is not a development thing as just a poor scouting/player selection issue. Maybe they need Clint Eastwood to come in and help.
The Dodgers were not handicapped with the penalties the Braves received after 2017. And I don't know where you're getting this notion that the Dodgers have such a great farm system. According to fangraphs, their top prospect coming into the season was a 25 year old pitcher with a career minor leaguer ERA over 4. And half of their top 10 prospects are international FAs. And that's where we lost all of international signings from the 2016 and 2017 classes, then got hamstrung from signing top players for another 3 years after that. So we had to rely almost entirely on our draft capital to build our system from 2018-2020. And then COVID shortened the Draft in 2020 (which we still knocked it out of the park that draft).
And despite all of that, we've still arguably produced better MLB products than LA has since AA has taken over. And I'm not going to count the Coppy holdovers like Fried, Riley, and Acuna who AA had nothing to do with signing/drafting.
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Buehler WAS good. Emphasis on was. He has struggled pretty mightily coming back from injury. At this point, I would consider him as much of a hit as Soroka was. No. 1 starter before injury, which wasn't especially long. And of course Wright is included in that discussion as well, though he was never a legit no. 1 starter.
cajunrevenge
Well-known member
I didn't say the Dodgers were barren of home grown players. Only that the Braves have done a better job of turning their prospects into good MLB players. The Dodgers are great at trading their prospects for players they can throw money at because risk means little to a team with a bottomless payroll. They are great at signing big checks for other teams players. Ohtani, Betts, Freeman, Yamamoto, Mr. Glassnow. 5 best players all from other teams.
AA came here in 2017 and only Albies was on the team and performing well. So while he might not have drafted many of the players he helped develop them. In 7 years drafting we so far got Harris and Strider from his drafts and there's still AJSS, Waldrep, and Schwellenbach. Beyond that AA did a good job of scouting the major league level bringing in Sale, Lopez, Pierce Johnson, Jimenez, and to a lesser extent Arcia.
AA came here in 2017 and only Albies was on the team and performing well. So while he might not have drafted many of the players he helped develop them. In 7 years drafting we so far got Harris and Strider from his drafts and there's still AJSS, Waldrep, and Schwellenbach. Beyond that AA did a good job of scouting the major league level bringing in Sale, Lopez, Pierce Johnson, Jimenez, and to a lesser extent Arcia.
Southcack77
Well-known member
I guess maybe you could do an actual comparison of the prospects the systems have put out in recent years and it might be interesting.
As far as I can tell since AA took over in 2018:
Impact players promoted (players with multiple 3+ WAR seasons):
Dodgers
Will Smith
Walker Buehler
Maybe you can include Julio Urias, but he technically came up in 2016.
Verdugo is pretty close, but he doesn't qualify based on the criteria.
Braves
Acuna
Fried (same situation as Urias)
Riley
Harris
Strider
Bill Contreras basically qualifies here even though he barely missed 3 WAR in 22 but he is already at 2.6 so far this year.
That's as far as I'm willing to go right now.
We also have Soroka and Wright who had impact seasons, but had their careers derailed by injuries. Dodgers only other player that I would rank up against those two is Tony Gonsolin.
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Dodgers also have some role players like Outman, Miller, and Lux who have had some good seasons but haven't replicated those seasons yet. Likewise, the braves have had Anderson, Elder, and to lesser extent Grissom who qualify here too.
Relief pitchers aren't worthy of note, imo. So I left them off.
I don't know much about the prospects the Dodgers have traded away in recent years other than Jeter Downs, Keibert Ruiz, and Josiah Gray. But as far as I can tell, Josiah Gray seems by far the best of the bunch with a 3 WAR season in 2023.
As for us, Shea Langeliers has turned into a solid starting catcher, currently on pace for about 2 WAR. Joey Estes has had a decent enough rookie season so far for Oakland. Kyle Muller is doing well in a relief role for Oak. And Bryse Wilson is doing well as a long reliever/spot starter for Milwaukee.
Relief pitchers aren't worthy of note, imo. So I left them off.
I don't know much about the prospects the Dodgers have traded away in recent years other than Jeter Downs, Keibert Ruiz, and Josiah Gray. But as far as I can tell, Josiah Gray seems by far the best of the bunch with a 3 WAR season in 2023.
As for us, Shea Langeliers has turned into a solid starting catcher, currently on pace for about 2 WAR. Joey Estes has had a decent enough rookie season so far for Oakland. Kyle Muller is doing well in a relief role for Oak. And Bryse Wilson is doing well as a long reliever/spot starter for Milwaukee.
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cajunrevenge
Well-known member
The trick isn't just acquiring good prospects but scouting them accurately and trading the ones who you think have the least chance to prosper. There's some prospects AA has traded doing okay but not really anyone we regret trading.
zbhargrove
Well-known member
Muncy wasn’t a Dodger product… he came up in the Oakland org… still he didn’t find much success until he was a Dodger.