Around MLB 2017

Carp said:
Lol, you are insane if you think the two teams were even remotely similar.

The Braves had Freeman, Simmons, Kimbrel, Gattis, JT, and Wood as the only stars under long term control. That's 6 players. And they had literally no one else in the minors that was close, save Pereza I guess (what an amazing talent he turned out to be).

Epstein also drafted, acquired via trade, and developed pretty much all his young, controllable talent as well, whereas Wren inherited the majority of his talent.

No where even in the galaxy of being similar.
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sturg has this thing for Wren, idk why.

The two situations arent remotely similar.

Sure Theo "gutted" the Cubs farm but as others have said. They pretty much have their core lineup for the next 3-5 years. Braves had little controllable talent, and of course the farm system was garbage.
 
smootness said:
So our farm system would look something like this:

1. Acuna

2. Albies

3. Allard

4. Soroka

5. Bryse Wilson

and then whatever we got in the Kimbrel deal and the mid-1st and compensatory picks, and then very little behind that.

And our MLB roster would look something like this in terms of young assets:

1B: Freeman

2B: Peraza

SS: Simmons

3B: Camargo

SP: Teheran

SP: Wood

SP: Folty

So that's basically what we'd be looking at. It's interesting, but I'm still taking where we are now. I like Inciarte, Dansby, Anderson/Wentz/Muller, Gohara, Newcomb, Fried, Touki, Jackson, and the international signings over Wood, Simmons, Peraza, a better Kimbrel return, and the compensatory picks. Some may disagree, but I like where we are now.
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plus the money we are paying Kemp and Markakis and picks from 2015 and 2016 and international signings from those years...and you can fill out the roster with guys like Flowers, Adams, Rodriguez, Dickey and Garcia as we are currently doing
 
Carp said:
True, but also failing to keep the farm system stocked falls entirely on Wren.
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Failing to keep it stocked is one way of looking at it. The Braves at one point were also one of the youngest and winningest teams in baseball. A new stadium coming in a couple of years and the envy of most teams. They had some of the most talent of any team in baseball of players under 25. Just so happened that most of them were at the major league level already. Again, if most of our young pitchers don't get hurt then our need to rebuild (lack of starting pitching) wouldn't have happened.
 
thewupk said:
Failing to keep it stocked is one way of looking at it. The Braves at one point were also one of the youngest and winningest teams in baseball. A new stadium coming in a couple of years and the envy of most teams. They had some of the most talent of any team in baseball of players under 25. Just so happened that most of them were at the major league level already. Again, if most of our young pitchers don't get hurt then our need to rebuild (lack of starting pitching) wouldn't have happened.
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That's debatable, though certainly losing several pitchers to injury didn't help matters. The offense was going to be in some trouble in 2015 and beyond without adding some good pieces. And since we had no help in the minors on the way, he would have had to pay a premium yet again on FA talent.

Also wasting 130 million and change on CJ, Uggla, and BJ were disasters being heavily felt at the time of his departure. His legacy in Atl will be remembered more for his horrific waste of money on terrible assets than anything else. Between Lowe, Uggla, BJ, CJ, and KK, he wasted over 200 million alone.
 
Carp said:
That's debatable, though certainly losing several pitchers to injury didn't help matters. The offense was going to be in some trouble in 2015 and beyond without adding some good pieces. And since we had no help in the minors on the way, he would have had to pay a premium yet again on FA talent.

Also wasting 130 million and change on CJ, Uggla, and BJ were disasters being heavily felt at the time of his departure. His legacy in Atl will be remembered more for his horrific waste of money on terrible assets than anything else. Between Lowe, Uggla, BJ, CJ, and KK, he wasted over 200 million alone.
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He wasn't perfect but he did build a winner. Yes he had some very bad contracts on the team. The one thing I will say is at least his were aiming at being competitive and now the Braves are paying Markakis/Colon/Kemp 50+ million this year alone just to be at .500

It's also ever apparent that the JS and Co never really gave up control of running the team. Not letting Wren properly rebuild. Not letting Wren fire Gonzalez. Pushing up the time frame for Coppy to contend. It's pretty disturbing.
 
IDK.

Our system is weird.

I don't think Coppy has the final say on draft picks. I think that goes to the Director of Baseball Operations guy. It might even go to the new Vice Chairman.
 
smootness said:
I mean, their farm is depleted. Obviously it's mostly depleted because they've graduated some really good players and aren't drafting highly anymore. So for the most part their farm system has done exactly what it is supposed to do, with wild success.

But their farm system itself is certainly now depleted. It is among the worst systems in baseball. Losing Torres, Jimenez, and Cease in two deals will do that to you.
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If you are the Cubs, why would you care? You can buy free agents or international players and build a cast surrounding young, controllable talent you already have at the majors. People on this board fail to realize small market teams have to build teams differently than big market teams. Losing prospects kills small teams; big teams, it is not as crippling.
 
Carp said:
He's the one most directly responsible for the process in which the picks are made.
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Agreed. So when the drafting became crappy because wren put in his guys (pushing clark out the door) while our international department remained most the same (almarez still arounf) then how much credit should wren get for albies/acuna?
 
gilesfan said:
Trienen has decent stuff, but let's use some common sense here.
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Decent stuff? He throws a sinker that averages 96.8 MPH with 10 inches of drop. An average MLB sinker is is 91 MPH with a little over 8 inches of drop.

Can you find a similar sinker in the game today? Do you have any idea what you're talking about?
 
Enscheff said:
Decent stuff? He throws a sinker that averages 96.8 MPH with 10 inches of drop. An average MLB sinker is is 91 MPH with a little over 8 inches of drop.

Can you find a similar sinker in the game today? Do you have any idea what you're talking about?
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Im trying to figure out how much time to spend on this; you really believe Blake Treinen (29 yrs old) is a better pitcher than Sean Doolittle (30 yo)?

Blake, despite his sinker that goes 96 mph, cannot consistently find the strike zone, cant get lefties out (.364 wOBA) and over 3-4 years is a 3.5 ERA/FIP guy. You are claiming he is better than a guy with a 3.1 ERA/2.4 FIP.

Certainly there is a tiny chance he figures out how to throw strikes, get lefties out, and get his sinker to the bottom of the knees instead of thigh high, but someone trying to claim Treinen is better than Doolittle is pretty dumb to be frank. Your support is "well, he throws a fast sinker." Well, how does that work out for him?
 
Enscheff said:
LOL that's rich. Epstein got to actually rebuild with both the Cubs and BoSox. Wren never had that opportunity.

Oh, and let's talk about payroll available in Boston, Chicago and Atlanta. How many $150M+ FAs did Wren get to buy?

Go count the flags hanging at SunTrust under Coppy while you're out counting things.
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This post is also known as "Don't use Epstein to defend Wren because their situations are entirely different." Which is half of what I was trying to say.

Also, I'll count Coppy's flags when he's been a GM here as long as Wren.
 
gilesfan said:
Im trying to figure out how much time to spend on this; you really believe Blake Treinen (29 yrs old) is a better pitcher than Sean Doolittle (30 yo)?

Blake, despite his sinker that goes 96 mph, cannot consistently find the strike zone, cant get lefties out (.364 wOBA) and over 3-4 years is a 3.5 ERA/FIP guy. You are claiming he is better than a guy with a 3.1 ERA/2.4 FIP.

Certainly there is a tiny chance he figures out how to throw strikes, get lefties out, and get his sinker to the bottom of the knees instead of thigh high, but someone trying to claim Treinen is better than Doolittle is pretty dumb to be frank. Your support is "well, he throws a fast sinker." Well, how does that work out for him?
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LOL, you're just as dumb now as before you took the break from posting here.

Allow me to quote exactly what I wrote: "He will likely end up being the best pitcher in that deal".

Now let that sink into your brain and swirl around a bit...I'll wait...

Has it dawned on your yet? Which of these statements did I say?

1. Treinen is better than Doolittle
2. Treinen will be better than both of them in the future

Ponder that question, stretch the limits of your reading comprehension a bit, and get back to me.
 
Enscheff said:
LOL, you're just as dumb now as before you took the break from posting here.

Allow me to quote exactly what I wrote: "He will likely end up being the best pitcher in that deal".

Now let that sink into your brain and swirl around a bit...I'll wait...

Has it dawned on your yet? Which of these statements did I say?

1. Treinen is better than Doolittle
2. Treinen will be better than both of them in the future

Ponder that question, stretch the limits of your reading comprehension a bit, and get back to me.
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You do realize Treinen is 29 and Doolittle is 30, right? So your basis is I can't prove anything I say to be right so I will just say "I'm predicting the future!" That way no one can prove your wrong at this time and can get away with zero support for your argument.
 
gilesfan said:
If you are the Cubs, why would you care? You can buy free agents or international players and build a cast surrounding young, controllable talent you already have at the majors. People on this board fail to realize small market teams have to build teams differently than big market teams. Losing prospects kills small teams; big teams, it is not as crippling.
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You wouldn't. I didn't say it matters at all. Was only commenting on the idea that their farm isn't depleted. It absolutely is.
 
gilesfan said:
You do realize Treinen is 29 and Doolittle is 30, right? So your basis is I can't prove anything I say to be right so I will just say "I'm predicting the future!" That way no one can prove your wrong at this time and can get away with zero support for your argument.
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Umm, of course the consensus is Treinen can/will improve. Why the hell do you think the A's acquired him as an asset for the future? He is cheaper, under control longer, and is likely to improve. Pretty much exactly what teams look for when they trade present value for future value.

Exactly how dense are you? Wow...
 
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