Best Baseball Player --- Ever

NinersSBChamps said:
You could say Bonds was juicing his entire career. It was much easier in the 90's too. Guy has no merit in my mind as one of the games best players.
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You COULD.....but it's pretty well documented that he started after that stupid year Mig Mac and Sosa had and Bonds was an all-time great before that. Also, the problem with the "Bonds is a roider, so he is dead" arguement, is....we don't know who is/was juicing. By most accounts it's damn near 40-50% of the sport
 
tlroom112 said:
I'm sorry but I refuse to acknowledge those numbers. The history of the human body tells you a players prime is from 27-32 for baseball. If you look at Bonds career stats, he had HOF numbers his whole career, but all of the sudden they went to another level at age 35-40. No justification for that.

Now if you want to compare Pujols first 12 season vs Bonds first 12 seasons, I can go there, and it would be an interesting debate.
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Pujols has been linked to roids and lying about his age, so he isn't "in the clear" by any stretch....
 
BRule said:
You COULD.....but it's pretty well documented that he started after that stupid year Mig Mac and Sosa had and Bonds was an all-time great before that. Also, the problem with the "Bonds is a roider, so he is dead" arguement, is....we don't know who is/was juicing. By most accounts it's damn near 40-50% of the sport
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Sosa, Palmerio, McGwire, and Bonds are the notable names who ruined baseball for the foreseeable future.
 
JCarbo76 said:
Caveat: I'm talking position players only here.

Ruth is by himself. The next level is Cobb, Williams, Bonds, and Wagner.

The next level would include Gehrig, Mays, Mantle, Aaron, Musial, and Speaker.

Clemente, as great as he was, would not be in my top 30. Cabrera is building a resume, though.
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I agree with every player on this list. But if you put Bonds in there you have to include Rose. Cant make myself acknowledge those 2 for the obvious reasons.
 
The players in todays game are much better athletes..

Look what these guys are doing against better competition...

I wish we could let the athletes of today slow pitch softball bomb players like Babe Ruth.

Evolution doesnt exist.
 
BRule said:
Pujols has been linked to roids and lying about his age, so he isn't "in the clear" by any stretch....
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If that's true about Pujols, I wouldn't be surprised at all, and in my mind makes sense. I'll have to find another choice lol. I guess we're definitely not counting Manny Ramirez either then huh? Well then I'm going with Frank Thomas over Ken Griffey, as the best player from my generation who is clean (early 90's to today).

*Edit: Should have said hitter. If we factor in defense, Griffey takes it.
 
BRule said:
Not sure how baseball is ruined.....players in the Mantle days were popping greenies like Advil, I assume that's okay with you?
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Just wait until they ban the next strand of substances players are using now.

The **** they have now is overall a much better choice anyway
 
tlroom112 said:
I'm sorry but I refuse to acknowledge those numbers. The history of the human body tells you a players prime is from 27-32 for baseball. If you look at Bonds career stats, he had HOF numbers his whole career, but all of the sudden they went to another level at age 35-40. No justification for that.

Now if you want to compare Pujols first 12 season vs Bonds first 12 seasons, I can go there, and it would be an interesting debate.
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Bonds's first 12 seasons .288/.408/.551 374 homers 417 SB 7403 PA 90.2 fWAR Pujols's first 12 seasons .325/.414/.608 475 homers 92 SB 86.7 fWAR in 8103 PA

Bonds didn't quite have the offensive numbers as pujols, but he was an amazing defender and deadly in the basepaths. There is also no evidence that either of them were truly clean in their playing time. Pujols sure has had a sharp dropoff, much sharper than most people his age normally do without the major health issues of say Andruw Jones or the major swing issues of Dale Murphy.
 
BRule said:
Not sure how baseball is ruined.....players in the Mantle days were popping greenies like Advil, I assume that's okay with you?
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Anytime someone does well they are automatically linked to steroids and need to prove their innocence. Just look at Chris Davis. Those four idiots among others put a bad taste in a lot of fans mouths.
 
Another reason I'd go with Frank Thomas (aside from the offensive numbers and ignoring defense), he was actually an advocate for drug testing and voluntarily contributed to the Mitchell report.
 
NinersSBChamps said:
Anytime someone does well they are automatically linked to steroids and need to prove their innocence. Just look at Chris Davis. Those four idiots among others put a bad taste in a lot of fans mouths.
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So because dumbass fans/writers/bloggers scream "ROIDS" baseball is ruined? If we had the internet back then, the same crap woud've happened to the players then. To say a sport is "ruined" because of the minority being idiots, just doesn't make sense to me.
 
BRule said:
So because dumbass fans/writers/bloggers scream "ROIDS" baseball is ruined? If we had the internet back then, the same crap woud've happened to the players then. To say a sport is "ruined" because of the minority being idiots, just doesn't make sense to me.
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My point is that these players are a direct reason why people have been turned off from the game.
 
NinersSBChamps said:
My point is that these players are a direct reason why people have been turned off from the game.
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I'm not saying that doesn't apply to SOME people, but it certainly doesn't apply to everyone. I would say the majority of people can realize how great Bonds was, with or without roids and still love the game just as much as they did 20 years ago.
 
NinersSBChamps said:
Anytime someone does well they are automatically linked to steroids and need to prove their innocence. Just look at Chris Davis. Those four idiots among others put a bad taste in a lot of fans mouths.
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They're idiots because they were better than everybody else...

Brian Anderson is a guy that always comes to mind. Roiding pitcher for AZ who couldnt put up Barry Bonds numbers on the mound regardless of his supplementing activity. But who the hell is Brian Anderson?
 
GMAJAH25 said:
They're idiots because they were better than everybody else...

Brian Anderson is a guy that always comes to mind. Roiding pitcher for AZ who couldnt put up Barry Bonds numbers on the mound regardless of his supplementing activity. But who the hell is Brian Anderson?
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They are idiots because they cheated and got caught.
 
NinersSBChamps said:
They are idiots because they cheated and got caught.
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Why were they caught?

Because they were the best in baseball.

Who gives a **** about the other mediocre and sub par players who were doing the same thing....they get to distance themselves from it...and probably blame their poor career numbers because it was so "unfair" they had to compete with those "cheaters"

In reality the balance of baseball is the same...Barry Bonds numbers compared to the ****tiest player in the league are the same....they are just displayed differently. The gap between the 2 is the same...just adjust the numbers accordingly
 
I can see roids adding to numbers (stats and longevity) but the fact remains a player still has to put the round bat on the round ball. Look at it this way, Brett Boone took roids, right?
Is he in this conversation -- the roids era though it skewed numbers compared to other eras , in baseball everything will always be relative to it's time. I grew up watching before expansion -- were those players better hitters because overall the pitching was better -- maybe?
Look at Ted Williams 1957 season or Mantles Triple Crown year -- where only the top 160 pitchers were big league pitchers. Now a days there are 360 big league pitchers, specialists and an army of back ups by creative use of the DL

I view roids as a phase and think Bonds should be celebrated for simply putting the bat on the ball better than anyone for a couple decades . Still aint better than Aaron though. A sloppier baserunner and not half the outfielder. Mays was pretty good but Mays had two things in his favor 1) New York 2) He wore a hat too small so it would fly off when he ran giving the appearance of being faster than the wind. A nice ballplayer but no Aaron.

I really think right now there are a number of players that will fit in the conversation at retirement. Mariano, Cabrera, Big Papi , have to include ARod, Ishiro, Buster Posey and maybe Brian McCann. Chipper had Eddie Murry / Mantle numbers /// anyone else hear last weekend that Brandon Phillips had numbers comparable and in some cases better than Joe Morgan. See they are out there -- still blows my head Aramis Rameriz just collected his 2,000 hit! Baseball is a funny game

One more thing - imagine Murph played in NY
 
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