Sorry but that is such a load of Bull! So you are saying that catchers that do it good came out of their MOMS butts framing pitches? If you get the right guy working with him he will learn how to do it. Unless he don't want to learn and is a head case then he CAN learn how to do it better. I showed my catchers to do this last year at age 10 and they are doing it great this year.
Bethancourt
- Thread starter nsacpi
- Start date
Sorry but that is such a load of Bull! So you are saying that catchers that do it good came out of their MOMS butts framing pitches? If you get the right guy working with him he will learn how to do it. Unless he don't want to learn and is a head case then he CAN learn how to do it better. I showed my catchers to do this last year at age 10 and they are doing it great this year.
AerchAngel
<B>Secretary of Statistics</B>
That's great Jason on trying to make your catchers better at a young age and I mean it, but I think Sav is saying by the time you get to the major leagues you should know how to do it properly and when you get to that level, ego plays a part of "you can't teach me to be better because how I do it is good enough" mentality.
nsacpi
Expects Yuge Games
I agree that patience is needed with most prospects, including Bethancourt. He's only 22. He's got an option left. Let's wait until he is closer to the finished product before using up his major league service time. From what I've seen the organization and Bethancourt would both be better off if he spent part of 2015 in AAA.
nsacpi
Expects Yuge Games
We also have Tewell, Caratini, Bello. Catcher is an organizational strength.
KB21
Where's My Cup of Coffee?
I'm not convinced any of those guys project as anything more than a back up catcher.
Deester11
Well-known member
Beth is fine defensively and his framing could use work, but to even compare the defensive work of Gattis to Bethancourt is insanity. The visual test says Beth is better easily than either Gattis or Laird. (Laird can still throw somehow). I've watched Beth since he was in Rome and of the many games I've watched him, there hasn't been a pitcher complain about his "framing" at all. And yes, at 22 if that is a problem, it can be corrected. Offensively, I even shake my head at the pitches he swings at, but I'm not apt to throw him aside just because.
50PoundHead
Hessmania Forever
Yeah, we're magic for 38-year-olds. The difference between Ross and Laird is miniscule.
I have not seen enough of Bethancourt to make any kind of assessment about his defense. The point of my post was that if defense is his supposed strong suit and his defense is looking shaky (admittedly, he's been in the bigs about a month), that assessment may need to be reassessed.
As others have said, he's 22 years old. He's a big kid who started showing some bat in the last couple of years and that could be the last thing to come for him. Other than that, it's all about consistency and a catcher can't take a pitch off, much less a play off. The mental part of the game is crucial for a catcher and that may need to be drilled into him. I'm not calling him lazy or stupid. I'm just saying perhaps the hardest part of the game to instill into rookies is the need to be consistent.
What worries me is Bethancourt is showing Henry Blanco-like bat speed.
And again, I don't want to sound like a pessimist, but your catching style is something that you just have instinctively.
CB has been rated so highly defensively, and I must admit like 50 the month that I've seen him up here I've been less than impressed with his set up behind the plate, the way he receives/frames, and his presence behind the plate.
When Mac first came up I saw how great of a catcher he was. Mauer has been the same since he was called up, Yadier has been the same, Posey has been the same, Posada was the same forever.
On the reverse end, I almost threw up when I saw Brayan Pena play catcher for us, and I'm not even talking about his throwing.
Laird is not that impressive behind the dish, but at least he provides the leadership.
I'm not damning CB to eternal failure, I'm saying that by watching him in the time he's been up I've been disappointed in his catching ability in contrast to what I've read about him for years. Saltalamacchia is a better receiver than him (outside of those mental errors).
Now that I think about it, there was a constant theme to Maddux's "personal" catchers. They all had excellent receiving abilities, and they could always remain motionless behind the plate all the way up until the pitch was delivered which really helpful for pitch framing. Eddie, Bako, Blanco were all really really stable back there.
CB has been rated so highly defensively, and I must admit like 50 the month that I've seen him up here I've been less than impressed with his set up behind the plate, the way he receives/frames, and his presence behind the plate.
When Mac first came up I saw how great of a catcher he was. Mauer has been the same since he was called up, Yadier has been the same, Posey has been the same, Posada was the same forever.
On the reverse end, I almost threw up when I saw Brayan Pena play catcher for us, and I'm not even talking about his throwing.
Laird is not that impressive behind the dish, but at least he provides the leadership.
I'm not damning CB to eternal failure, I'm saying that by watching him in the time he's been up I've been disappointed in his catching ability in contrast to what I've read about him for years. Saltalamacchia is a better receiver than him (outside of those mental errors).
Now that I think about it, there was a constant theme to Maddux's "personal" catchers. They all had excellent receiving abilities, and they could always remain motionless behind the plate all the way up until the pitch was delivered which really helpful for pitch framing. Eddie, Bako, Blanco were all really really stable back there.
GovClintonTyree
<B>Vencer a Los Doyers</B>
Absolutely. Bethancourt has work to do with his plate discipline. On the defensive side, I think a lot of people who evaluate overvalue a big arm. He's got a gun, but as others have pointed out, he could use some polish on his receiving skills.
Ultimately, I value the bat more than the glove. Bill James did a piece years ago that proved to me that as long as you field a position competently, you're better off with an offensive force than a superior defender and average offense. I consider Gattis competent, maybe a bit better than that, and he's the best hitting catcher in the majors. As far as I am concerned, if Gattis proves healthy, we don't have a job for Bethancourt for the foreseeable future. And with a .600ish OPS, we shouldn't. He's a catch and throw guy until he learns how to hit.
Is this the reasoning for them calling him up, so he can learn from his mentor, Laird?
nsacpi
Expects Yuge Games
With Gattis around, what we have room for is a backup catcher. I think Bethancourt is young enough that he could develop into a starting caliber catcher. Right now he isn't and I would give him more time to develop in AAA where he can play almost every day. If he does develop into a starting caliber catcher his value is maximized by trading him. If he doesn't there will be room on the major league team for a role as Gattis' backup.
50PoundHead
Hessmania Forever
Gattis has missed considerable time in each of the past three seasons due to injury. One can't control for that and it's difficult to say it's a pattern. Ideally, it would be great to find a LHH experienced guy whose career has fallen to back-up status. Those guys are hard to find. If A.J. Pierzynski wasn't suck a d*ck, he'd be someone I would consider, but he's supposedly clubhouse poison and that's not going to fly on a team that protects the clubhouse environment (sometimes at the cost of obvious production). Plus, Pierzynski would likely be too rich for our blood.
Bottom line: I think we are going to need a solid back-up for Gattis. I don't know if that's Bethancourt or if we sign someone on a short-term deal while Bethancourt is given more time to develop.
yeezus
It's OVER 5,000!
I was criticized just last week for strongly questioning Bethancourt's bat and overall value. Despite the fact he's pretty much never shown anything with the bat anywhere at any point, and has no good, developed offensive skill. It's a long shot he ends up even average with the bat. I would love to deal him for whatever value he may have, but I fear it's not all that much. Guys that can't hit a lick are not valued. He cannot, at the moment, hit a lick. No patience. No power. Slow bat. Doesn't hit for a high average. Nothing.
yeezus
It's OVER 5,000!
His entire minor league career is not a small sample size. And what he's done with the bat in the minors does not bode well for what he'll do in the majors.
The difference:
You're teaching 10 year olds how to properly catch, who don't know any better.
CB is a polished professional catcher, whom should know how to do it by now especially when his defensive skills have been highly touted as his strongest attributes.
MadduxFanII
Swallowed by Mark Bowman
I won't pretend to be a skilled enough scout to evaluate Bethancourt's defense, especially based on the limited exposure we've had to him. The only point I do think is worth making is that little about him has really stood out. In and of itself, that's fine. We have a proud tradition going back to Javy Lopez's debut of strong-swinging catchers who were just sort of "there" defensively, and Bethancourt is surely better than that.
The problem is that the Bethancourt narrative was always that he was so extraordinary behind the plate that you could deal with his weak bat while it developed. He was so brilliant defensively that he was on the Yadier Molina path: come up, hit eighth for a few years and do it poorly, blow everyone away defensively, develop with the bat and become an exceptionally valuable player. And even if he never really improved that much with the bat, he was so good defensively that he just needed to be around, say, a .600 OPS to serve as a viable starting catcher.
Now, if that narrative has to change, and Bethancourt goes from Yadier-esque to decent, solid or even just standard-issue "good," then the offensive demands on him become much more significant. You deal with a .600 OPS from your starting catcher when he's doing everything flawlessly on the defensive end. You don't if he's just another catch-and-throw guy. And there are obviously very real, very pressing questions about Bethancourt's ability to ever be anything more than a significant minus with the bat.
The problem is that the Bethancourt narrative was always that he was so extraordinary behind the plate that you could deal with his weak bat while it developed. He was so brilliant defensively that he was on the Yadier Molina path: come up, hit eighth for a few years and do it poorly, blow everyone away defensively, develop with the bat and become an exceptionally valuable player. And even if he never really improved that much with the bat, he was so good defensively that he just needed to be around, say, a .600 OPS to serve as a viable starting catcher.
Now, if that narrative has to change, and Bethancourt goes from Yadier-esque to decent, solid or even just standard-issue "good," then the offensive demands on him become much more significant. You deal with a .600 OPS from your starting catcher when he's doing everything flawlessly on the defensive end. You don't if he's just another catch-and-throw guy. And there are obviously very real, very pressing questions about Bethancourt's ability to ever be anything more than a significant minus with the bat.
AerchAngel
<B>Secretary of Statistics</B>
Having a reputation had me excited at first but more of him playing shown that his reputation is flawed or exposed. Like all of you have stated in this thread, I just don't see it as well. He is serviceable as a backup, similar to someone like Rafael Belliard, weak hitter, meh/average defensively, won't wow you, but won't hurt you terribly either.
I think he can improve on some things but some of the things he do is by habit and it might be tough to get out of said habit, framing is one of them. He is probably the best blocking catcher I seen as a Brave since Bruce Benedict as he moves side to side flawlessly but that is just one of many attributes playing that position.
I think he can improve on some things but some of the things he do is by habit and it might be tough to get out of said habit, framing is one of them. He is probably the best blocking catcher I seen as a Brave since Bruce Benedict as he moves side to side flawlessly but that is just one of many attributes playing that position.
nsacpi
Expects Yuge Games
Some of it is reputation/expectations. La Stella was supposed to be weak defensively, and we see he has been ok so far and we're happy with that.
Bethancourt was supposed to be a defensive god, and he is not quite that and we're disappointed.
There is also the context having to do with the bat and the rest of their games that others have commented on.
Bethancourt was supposed to be a defensive god, and he is not quite that and we're disappointed.
There is also the context having to do with the bat and the rest of their games that others have commented on.