Braves donate Justin Upton to Padres for prospects

nsacpi said:
Recognizing that Melvin has no trade value might be the prerequisite for doing something to upgrade center. I suspect the front office will not bite that bullet until June. Hopefully we are not out of it at that point.
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I completely agree.

There's no reason to hope we'll get anything of value even pairing B. J. with someone. Simply make him the 4th OF and ride it out, but don't take on money in any Justin or Gattis deal.

If Hart can't pry Gallo away, but got a CF to replace B. J. in Profar, a RF to replace Heyward in Williams, and another relatively high-ceiling arm to tuck away in Thompson, there would still be plenty of money to sign Tomas and/or Moncada or add a piece or two prior to 2017. Doing that would also put him in a position to deal Gattis (if he so chooses) for more arms.
 
Hawk said:
Stop for a moment to consider what this organization is aiming to accomplish in the next two years.

Competing in 2017 is essential for a multitude of reasons - many of which go well beyond the diamond. The team has financial flexibility (more than most people seem to realize) but not exactly a blank check like the Marlins did a few years ago, either. Turning BJ into a glorified 4th OF or just biting the bullet and eating his contract are two real possibilities that are going to hurt the team by virtue of a simple lack of return on investment.

Moving BJ for a younger, infinitely more productive talent (who just happens to have an uncomfortable future commitment) -- but not, by any stretch of the exaggerated perspective you are operating from, impossible to absorb, is a little more easy to swallow. It's trading up, but not out.

Andrus is a good player. Is he worth $15MM right now? Not exactly, although it would be interesting to see what kind of contract he would receive on the open market as it stands.

Could he be worth $15MM in 2016 and beyond? Absolutely.

It's the lesser of two evils, though. The Braves don't need to move BJ Upton because they can't afford to pay him. They can't afford to pay him to do nothing. Atleast Andrus would provide this team some immediately tangible value and allow Hart to continue to reload (versus rebuild) headed into 2015.
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Sure. Jason Heyward "could" turn into Giancarlo Stanton before April too. (Since we're talking about situations where pigs fly, B. J. "could" be worth $15 million in 2016 and beyond.)

On what planet is admitting a $46 million mistake and trying to cover it up with a $120 million mistake the lesser of anything?

Andrus has been available almost since the minute the ink dried on that contract - nobody wants him.
 
clvclv said:
Sure. Jason Heyward "could" turn into Giancarlo Stanton before April too.

On what planet is admitting a $46 million mistake and trying to cover it up with a $120 million mistake the lesser of anything?

Andrus has been available almost since the minute the ink dried on that contract - nobody wants him.
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A) Your players valuations are dated ... and wack as ****.

B) The Rangers don't have to trade Elvis Andrus. They haven't aggressively shopped him. You are treating him as though he's some fat chick that has been passed around at a frat party (because being sensationalist is AWESOME!) There's a reason that the Rangers gave him that deal to begin with -- one that's much more logical and defensible than the BJ Upton pact. Upton can already officially be considered one of the worst FA signings of the past decade (if not all time). As hard as you might try, and fail, Andrus' deal isn't at that point yet.
 
Hawk said:
A) Your players valuations are dated ... and wack as ****.

B) The Rangers don't have to trade Elvis Andrus. They haven't aggressively shopped him. You are treating him as though he's some fat chick that has been passed around at a frat party (because being sensationalist is AWESOME!) There's a reason that the Rangers gave him that deal to begin with -- one that's much more logical and defensible than the BJ Upton pact. Upton can already officially be considered one of the worst FA signings of the past decade (if not all time). As hard as you might try, and fail, Andrus' deal isn't at that point yet.
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Paying half the posters on this board to stand in CF for the major league minimum is as logical and defensible as the M. Upton contract.
 
The BJ Upton contract sucks. But nobody expected what he's done thus far. Nobody. He's a guy that's in shape, in his prime, and no history of any injuries that would cause a loss of production. Had he simply been the 110ish WRC+ guy with plus defense that he was the last 3 years in Tampa he would of been worth the contract given to him. But somehow when the Braves bring in hitters from outside the org they turn to ****. The younger Upton is about the only guy to buck the trend. It's pretty remarkable how much bad luck the Braves have had in bringing in hitters.
 
Hawk said:
A) Your players valuations are dated ... and wack as ****.

B) The Rangers don't have to trade Elvis Andrus. They haven't aggressively shopped him. You are treating him as though he's some fat chick that has been passed around at a frat party (because being sensationalist is AWESOME!) There's a reason that the Rangers gave him that deal to begin with -- one that's much more logical and defensible than the BJ Upton pact. Upton can already officially be considered one of the worst FA signings of the past decade (if not all time). As hard as you might try, and fail, Andrus' deal isn't at that point yet.
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Teams that need a SS:
NYY, NYM, LAD, OAK, ???, ???

Rumored trade offers for Andrus and his contract:
None so far.

(BTW, Oakland just traded international bonus money for Ike Davis instead of trying to make a deal for Andrus.)

Sensationalist?
If you say so.
 
clvclv said:
Teams that need a SS:
NYY, NYM, LAD, OAK, ???, ???

Rumored trade offers for Andrus and his contract:
None so far.

(BTW, Oakland just traded international bonus money for Ike Davis instead of trying to make a deal for Andrus.)

Sensationalist?
If you say so.
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Ike Davis plays 1B.

And the Rangers aren't interested in trading Andrus, according to Ken Rosenthal (this afternoon) ... so I'm failing to totally understand where you are going with the whole 'nobody wants him' trope.
 
clvclv said:
Teams that need a SS:
NYY, NYM, LAD, OAK, ???, ???

Rumored trade offers for Andrus and his contract:
None so far.

(BTW, Oakland just traded international bonus money for Ike Davis instead of trying to make a deal for Andrus.)

Sensationalist?
If you say so.
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I thought Billy Beane was a smart GM. This deal and the Butler deal are head scratchers to me.
 
thewupk said:
The BJ Upton contract sucks. But nobody expected what he's done thus far. Nobody. He's a guy that's in shape, in his prime, and no history of any injuries that would cause a loss of production. Had he simply been the 110ish WRC+ guy with plus defense that he was the last 3 years in Tampa he would of been worth the contract given to him. But somehow when the Braves bring in hitters from outside the org they turn to ****. The younger Upton is about the only guy to buck the trend. It's pretty remarkable how much bad luck the Braves have had in bringing in hitters.
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If BJ Upton hadn't imploded Frank Wren would still have his job and the marquee banners at SunTrust park would probably feature the Upton bros.

BJ was part of a much bigger plan that made a lot of sense at the time.
 
thewupk said:
The BJ Upton contract sucks. But nobody expected what he's done thus far. Nobody. He's a guy that's in shape, in his prime, and no history of any injuries that would cause a loss of production. Had he simply been the 110ish WRC+ guy with plus defense that he was the last 3 years in Tampa he would of been worth the contract given to him. But somehow when the Braves bring in hitters from outside the org they turn to ****. The younger Upton is about the only guy to buck the trend. It's pretty remarkable how much bad luck the Braves have had in bringing in hitters.
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But you still don't bid against yourself and give the guy an extra $2 MM to $3 MM per season for five years. Lack of patience has placed a burden on this franchise and if there's anything I fear most about the Heyward trade it's that impatience is still the order of the day.

PS--And again, it's the length of the contract more than the AAV that made the Upton deal stupid. This is especially true if you want to ink your young core to long-term deals. Wren doled out huge jing to a non-core player. At least with Uggla, you can argue that he was a core player.
 
50PoundHead said:
But you still don't bid against yourself and give the guy an extra $2 MM to $3 MM per season for five years. Lack of patience has placed a burden on this franchise and if there's anything I fear most about the Heyward trade it's that impatience is still the order of the day.
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I personally think Wren already knew that he could get Justin Upton when he overpaid for BJ. Otherwise it's pretty inexplicable.

Somebody needs to do a post-firing expose with Wren and get the dirt on the organization.
 
50PoundHead said:
But you still don't bid against yourself and give the guy an extra $2 MM to $3 MM per season for five years. Lack of patience has placed a burden on this franchise and if there's anything I fear most about the Heyward trade it's that impatience is still the order of the day.
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The 2 or 3 million extra a year isn't that big of a deal. The extra year was questionable and really annoying now. The bigger issue is Upton falling off a cliff. Had this not happened the extra money per year is really a non issue.
 
nsacpi said:
I wonder what the situation is with Brandon Moss' hip. My understanding is he needed surgery on it.
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Could be. Maybe Davis can pull a Brandon Moss type resurrection by the Bay.

Matt Olson is probably the long-term 1B prospect for the A's, but he hasn't played above A-Ball, even though he did fairly well in Arizona.
 
thewupk said:
The 2 or 3 million extra a year isn't that big of a deal. The extra year was questionable and really annoying now. The bigger issue is Upton falling off a cliff. Had this not happened the extra money per year is really a non issue.
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But $2 or $3 million is a big deal if you have ownership that is supposedly yanking at the pursestrings. That could have contributed to keeping Hudson on a two-year deal or something like that.

We could have had either Span or Revere at bargain basement prices and saved a lot of money.
 
50PoundHead said:
But $2 or $3 million is a big deal if you have ownership that is supposedly yanking at the pursestrings. That could have contributed to keeping Hudson on a two-year deal or something like that.

We could have had either Span or Revere at bargain basement prices and saved a lot of money.
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Hudson wanted years that the Braves didn't want to give. And if BJ had performed like expected it's not that big of a deal because we have a 3-4 win player in center. Yes Span or Revere would have been better in hindsight. But BJ was the best CFer available.
 
If you consider BJ'S contract a sunken cost Andrus would cost 72 million over 8 years. The Rangers seem to be in denial about Andrus ' s contract being an albatross though.
 
If we move him to Texas, Gallo has to be the starting point. A deal of Upton + for Gallo, Mazara, Thompson is rock solid. If Gallo is truly untouchable, then replace him with Williams and a lower level guy.

If the BoSox sign both Hanley and Pablo, they may call it an off-season but could also try to complete a juggernaut offense by adding JUp. JUp for Xander plus.

A Red Sox team with Papi, Napoli, Peds, Hanley, Pablo, Rusney, Cespedes, JUp wins the World Series.
 
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/11/12/its-doubtful-that-the-yankees-will-get-elvis-andrus/

http://metsblog.com/metsblog/are-the-mets-and-rangers-a-match-for-ss-elvis-andrus/

If you don't know they've been shopping Andrus you've been hiding under a rock.

The reason the A's trade for Davis is relevant is that it means they just spent over $14 million this year (and over $44 million total) on Davis and Billy Butler instead of trying to trade for a SS making $120 million when they don't have one - they feel they can get more offensive production from them while using a defense-only guy like Nick Punto, Eric Sogard, or Andy Parrino at that position.
 
clvclv said:
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/11/12/its-doubtful-that-the-yankees-will-get-elvis-andrus/

http://metsblog.com/metsblog/are-the-mets-and-rangers-a-match-for-ss-elvis-andrus/

If you don't know they've been shopping Andrus you've been hiding under a rock.

The reason the A's trade for Davis is relevant is that it means they just spent over $14 million this year (and over $44 million total) on Davis and Billy Butler instead of trying to trade for a SS making $120 million when they don't have one - they feel they can get more offensive production from them while using a defense-only guy like Nick Punto, Eric Sogard, or Andy Parrino at that position.
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There's a pretty significant difference between 'listening to offers' and openly shopping a player.

And what you believe about Oakland trading for Ike Davis and signing Billy Butler to supposedly replace the production that they couldn't get by acquiring a shortstop is an absurd stretch, at best -- but kudos to your ingenuity.
 
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