Braves in talks with DBacks for Trevor Cahill

Hawk said:
I never thought that you did.
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Then why go out of your way to point out that they can't walk away from him following this season other than to take a shot at me? If you understood it, chances are others did as well.
 
Wren's success was built on the back of Roy Clarks drafting...you know the guy that left the organization and immediately came back when Wren was let go.
 
GovClintonTyree said:
Yes. When he was 45 and 55. He's 75 now.

Wow. Hard to believe.

Nothing wrong with the philosophy he outlined. There's a whole lot wrong with the execution the last six months.

They're selling that Frank was tearing the organization apart, and they're putting it back together. You know what? Frank won. Maybe he was a d*ck, but he won. He was clever and brought a lot of talent to Atlanta.

If he hadn't rolled snake eyes on his big money acquisitions, he'd be here and we'd be competing . I was OK or enthusiastic about all of them except Mel.

I just think it's worthwhile to deconstruct the current narrative. The story we were told when Frank was fired didn't really compute from a performance perspective. And that part got overlooked because they also said oh, by the way, he was a giant penis, and everybody focused on that. Fact: we averaged more than 90 wins per season and were a perennial contender for the four years leading up to '14. Fact: We were in the hunt for the first 3/4 of that awful year, when multiple guys underperforming expected contributions finally caught up to us.

If you want to talk about Schuerholz's five point philosophy, Frank was a hell of a lot closer to executing it than the Three Johns.

I don't love Frank. But I sure don't see how this "Mukaki rebuild" makes sense. Heyward and Upton expiring? Sign one of them and augment with a Markakis. Invest in difference makers and player drafting/development. Stop spending middle money for mediocre players.
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Spot on
 
Dalyn said:
No. I think we are getting closer to being in it in July/August, but Fredi is still at the helm and almost never ends the year well. And that's the problem with the Mukaki Rebuild. It's doing just enough to give us a mediocre draft pick.
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I see a very strong top 4 in the starting rotation now along with what will always be a good bullpen.

The hitting will ummm well hmmm be kind of iffy. However, I still think there is room for optimism with a bounce back season from Simmons and Peterson being a potential solid top of the order option.

I'm starting to turn a bit on the prospects of the team. I'm thinking more now of a high 70's which obviously won't get it done but its the start of a long lasting success model assuming growth from a now strong minor league system.
 
clvclv said:
Then why go out of your way to point out that they can't walk away from him following this season other than to take a shot at me?
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Because you said EVERYONE ... and Nick Markakis (with his $45MM decrepit neck) is a pretty huge asterisk behind that broad claim.
 
thethe said:
Do you think its becoming more possible of a potential WC team this year? At least in the hunt come September?
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thethe, I love you, man. I just don't see it. I hope I'm wrong, wrong, wrong. I hope Trevor Cahill wins the Cy, EY scores 110 runs and Jace Peterson OBPs .400 and is Rookie of the Year.

I like finding our own, growing our own, and investing in our own. This looks like Goodwill.
 
I don't know what is so hard to understand about this. Under Wren our farm system went from one of the best in baseball to one of the worst. His drafting was horrible. We weren't developing talent. That's why we had to do this rebuild. We had two options, go for it this year and try to go head to head vs Washington (not to mention improving teams like NY and Miami) or take the long view approach of rebuilding what was broken. If you go for it this year and don't win then what have you accomplished? Next year would be real ugly. No improved farm system, no Heyward, no Upton. Still having a hard time understanding why fans are so upset. The reason the Braves have had the success they have had is because of a good farm system. We won't be able to win without one so if you don't go about fixing that you can't win. That is the main reason Wren is no longer here and Hart is.
 
thethe said:
I see a very strong top 4 in the starting rotation now along with what will always be a good bullpen.

The hitting will ummm well hmmm be kind of iffy. However, I still think there is room for optimism with a bounce back season from Simmons and Peterson being a potential solid top of the order option.

I'm starting to turn a bit on the prospects of the team. I'm thinking more now of a high 70's which obviously won't get it done but its the start of a long lasting success model assuming growth from a now strong minor league system.
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Teheran
Wood

Very strong.

Miller

Great potential, and I think he'll be strong.

Cahill

Fading potential, but I think he'll snap out of it a bit. Solid/average #4.

Wandy

This spring is not who he is. He's not even (half of) Harang (but who is). Hate that he's blocking Martin.

And our bullpen isn't a strength right now. Getting to Kimbrel with Fredi at the controls is going to be a huge pain in the ass.

The hitting, as much as we like to pretend, is going to be terrible.
 
GovClintonTyree said:
Yes. When he was 45 and 55. He's 75 now.

Wow. Hard to believe.

Nothing wrong with the philosophy he outlined. There's a whole lot wrong with the execution the last six months.

They're selling that Frank was tearing the organization apart, and they're putting it back together. You know what? Frank won. Maybe he was a d*ck, but he won. He was clever and brought a lot of talent to Atlanta.

If he hadn't rolled snake eyes on his big money acquisitions, he'd be here and we'd be competing . I was OK or enthusiastic about all of them except Mel.

I just think it's worthwhile to deconstruct the current narrative. The story we were told when Frank was fired didn't really compute from a performance perspective. And that part got overlooked because they also said oh, by the way, he was a giant penis, and everybody focused on that. Fact: we averaged more than 90 wins per season and were a perennial contender for the four years leading up to '14. Fact: We were in the hunt for the first 3/4 of that awful year, when multiple guys underperforming expected contributions finally caught up to us.

If you want to talk about Schuerholz's five point philosophy, Frank was a hell of a lot closer to executing it than the Three Johns.

I don't love Frank. But I sure don't see how this "Mukaki rebuild" makes sense. Heyward and Upton expiring? Sign one of them and augment with a Markakis. Invest in difference makers and player drafting/development. Stop spending middle money for mediocre players.
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You don't allow for the possibility that trading them and then potentially re-signing one doesn't simply speed up the process? We were years of drafting and developing away from finding potential replacements for Melvin, Johnson, and high-upside arms (assuming you consider Sims to be one).

Someone asked before about why I think re-signing one is a possibility. I just don't see why anyone believes it isn't IF they're going to sign with the highest bidder and we have the flexibility to be in that bidding. I'm not saying it will happen, but I don't think anyone can simply dismiss the possibility out of hand. The organization has stayed above the fray and not done anything that would close the door like speaking badly about them, and it's a given that the fanbase would be thrilled beyond belief to have one back. Even if they don't, the money is there to go after a similar big bat in Cespedes who will wind up as the least-expensive of the three.
 
ChapelHillMatt said:
I don't know what is so hard to understand about this. Under Wren our farm system went from one of the best in baseball to one of the worst. His drafting was horrible. We weren't developing talent. That's why we had to do this rebuild. We had two options, go for it this year and try to go head to head vs Washington (not to mention improving teams like NY and Miami) or take the long view approach of rebuilding what was broken. If you go for it this year and don't win then what have you accomplished? Next year would be real ugly. No improved farm system, no Heyward, no Upton. Still having a hard time understanding why fans are so upset. The reason the Braves have had the success they have had is because of a good farm system. We won't be able to win without one so if you don't go about fixing that you can't win. That is the main reason Wren is no longer here and Hart is.
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That's a fiction. We graduated Freddie Freeman, Jason Heyward, Andrelton Simmons, Evan Gattis, Mike Minor, Alex Wood, Julio Teheran, And Craig Kimbrel.

Those rankings that people parrot don't mean a thing because they take a snapshot of the system at the time they're rating and ignore the successes that are contributing at the ML level, some at a high level and some very young.
 
Hawk said:
Because you said EVERYONE ... and Nick Markakis (with his $45MM decrepit neck) is a pretty huge asterisk behind that broad claim.
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Then maybe you ought to just skip over my posts. I think there's a button for that. It's tough to slow down and make sure that every word in every post can't be questioned, and I typically try to do so more than many around here.

Again, nit-pick away - you don't really think I give a *hit whether you like what I have to say or not, do you?
 
clvclv said:
You don't allow for the possibility that trading them and then potentially re-signing one doesn't simply speed up the process? We were years of drafting and developing away from finding potential replacements for Melvin, Johnson, and high-upside arms (assuming you consider Sims to be one).

Someone asked before about why I think re-signing one is a possibility. I just don't see why anyone believes it isn't IF they're going to sign with the highest bidder and we have the flexibility to be in that bidding. I'm not saying it will happen, but I don't think anyone can simply dismiss the possibility out of hand. The organization has stayed above the fray and not done anything that would close the door like speaking badly about them, and it's a given that the fanbase would be thrilled beyond belief to have one back. Even if they don't, the money is there to go after a similar big bat in Cespedes who will wind up as the least-expensive of the three.
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That's a great idea, but you don't see it much. And if they play well enough that we want them, others will, too. I think the loyalty card really can help when a team like us offers, say, 80-85% of what the big four offer them. Once they've been traded, though, you take the wrapper of the loyalty box.

How many of the lottery tickets the Three Johns bought this offseason will actually pay off? That's the question. You improve your odds significantly with excellent scouting, which is our trump card.

Hope it works.
 
GovClintonTyree said:
That's a fiction. We graduated Freddie Freeman, Jason Heyward, Andrelton Simmons, Evan Gattis, Mike Minor, Alex Wood, Julio Teheran, And Craig Kimbrel.

Those rankings that people parrot don't mean a thing because they take a snapshot of the system at the time they're rating and ignore the successes that are contributing at the ML level, some at a high level and some very young.
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How is that fiction? Braves were historically always a top farm system after graduations.
 
clvclv said:
Then maybe you ought to just skip over my posts. I think there's a button for that. It's tough to slow down and make sure that every word in every post can't be questioned, and I typically try to do so more than many around here.

Again, nit-pick away - you don't really think I give a *hit whether you like what I have to say or not, do you?
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Quit being such a child.

You made a point, it was largely incorrect.

I questioned you on it and you in turn called me a 4 year old and 'Mom'.

No need to take things so personally.
 
GovClintonTyree said:
That's a fiction. We graduated Freddie Freeman, Jason Heyward, Andrelton Simmons, Evan Gattis, Mike Minor, Alex Wood, Julio Teheran, And Craig Kimbrel.

Those rankings that people parrot don't mean a thing because they take a snapshot of the system at the time they're rating and ignore the successes that are contributing at the ML level, some at a high level and some very young.
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"Graduated" being the operative term here. Name another player in the system not named Peraza BEFORE the trades with that kind of upside.
 
GovClintonTyree said:
That's a fiction. We graduated Freddie Freeman, Jason Heyward, Andrelton Simmons, Evan Gattis, Mike Minor, Alex Wood, Julio Teheran, And Craig Kimbrel.

Those rankings that people parrot don't mean a thing because they take a snapshot of the system at the time they're rating and ignore the successes that are contributing at the ML level, some at a high level and some very young.
Click to expand...

You can't stop developing your system just because some make it to the majors. You have to continue to draft well and be ready to replace them if need be. If nothing else it would give you trading chips to improve the major league team. Besides outside of Freeman none of the position players were developing at the major league level.....as much as some of you love Heyward he had been a disappointment. Simmons and Heyward were great defensively but at some point you have to hit don't you? You have a point with the pitchers but I think McDowell is a big reason why we seem to develop arms. He's a very good pitching coach.
 
GovClintonTyree said:
That's a great idea, but you don't see it much. And if they play well enough that we want them, others will, too. I think the loyalty card really can help when a team like us offers, say, 80-85% of what the big four offer them. Once they've been traded, though, you take the wrapper of the loyalty box.

How many of the lottery tickets the Three Johns bought this offseason will actually pay off? That's the question. You improve your odds significantly with excellent scouting, which is our trump card.

Hope it works.
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I don't think anybody disagrees with that. Just pointing out that you can't dismiss the possibility out of hand - we've all seen stranger things happen.
 
thethe said:
How is that fiction? Braves were historically always a top farm system after graduations.
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I think we started harvesting earlier and earlier. What's the average age of that list at promotion, 21?

So there's some truth to what you're saying. Question is whether it represented a trend caused by thinning resources or was an aberration that some solid drafting, investment and clever acquisition would overcome.

Guys like Law wet themselves when a team has a strong farm system. I think that's a distant second to performance at the ML level. I do understand that one is a leading indicator of the other, and that ours needed attention.
 
GovClintonTyree said:
I think we started harvesting earlier and earlier. What's the average age of that list at promotion, 21?

So there's some truth to what you're saying. Question is whether it represented a trend caused by thinning resources or was an aberration that some solid drafting, investment and clever acquisition would overcome.

Guys like Law wet themselves when a team has a strong farm system. I think that's a distant second to performance at the ML level. I do understand that one is a leading indicator of the other, and that ours needed attention.
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Obviously, major league success is the most important factor for any organization. But, the direction the farm system was heading as well as the impending FA of Heyward/Upton put the organization in a tough spot. They chose the long term view.
 
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