Braves sign Colon

NinersSBChamps said:
The team can't compete in 2017 or anytime in the future because of the goons running the show. The Braves are so far away from being relevant that they should be filling the roster with all these "great" prospects they have. Let them learn at this level.
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What about service time? Throw them in the deep end and by the time they learn to swim they are I their arbitration years.
 
Enscheff said:
To all those folks clamoring for a TOR pitcher trade, is it finally starting to sink in why I kept saying over and over that those ideas were unrealistic?
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Oh my lord... no one ever said you were wrong. We just discussed possibilities on a discussion forum... you are so desperate to prove yourself for some reason
 
Enscheff said:
I agree. They realized immediately that they weren't in the market for impact talent, so they pounced on everyone's fallback options before other teams even had a chance to fall back to those options and drive up the price on those guys.

While I'm a little disappointed that the bug FA acquisitions are Dickey and Colon, I think they were the right moves and I think Coppy played his hand perfectly so far.
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Likely true, but I'm curious as to why Dickey and Colon signed so quickly instead of waiting to when demand for their services may be higher.
 
Enscheff said:
Teams trying to acquire Archer sign guys like Colon and Dickey as fallback plans in January, not as Plan A in November.

I'm sure they were looking to fleece a team for a young pitcher, but it didn't happen. Insisting on holding out hope for such a trade after the events that have transpired is silly.
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Not likely but signing both of those guys give the Braves the option to trade Wisler now... who most certainly has quite a bit of value having been a top 50 prospect and having shown real flashes at the MLB level at a still very young age. Will it happen? Probably not, but I'm still not going to let you dictate whether I should discuss it or not.
 
Enscheff said:
Teams trying to acquire Archer sign guys like Colon and Dickey as fallback plans in January, not as Plan A in November.

I'm sure they were looking to fleece a team for a young pitcher, but it didn't happen. Insisting on holding out hope for such a trade after the events that have transpired is silly.
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Imo, Dickey and Colon signings are more an indictment of the faith the front office has in Folty, Wisler, Blair, and the rest on the MLB ready prospects of being reliable MLB pitchers in 2017.
 
Carp said:
Imo, Dickey and Colon signings are more an indictment of the faith the front office has in Folty, Wisler, Blair, and the rest on the MLB ready prospects of being reliable MLB pitchers in 2017.
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I think its more of a sign that they don't believe 2017 is a year to try and compete in. Which is fine, I agree.
 
50PoundHead said:
Likely true, but I'm curious as to why Dickey and Colon signed so quickly instead of waiting to when demand for their services may be higher.
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If I had to guess, I would say the meetings went something like this:

Braves talked with teams like the ChiSox and Rays to get an idea if they overvalued some of the Braves prospects.

When it was quickly realized that those types of pitchers required prospects the Braves considered off limits, they immediately pivoted to the FA options they targeted.

Dickey has said he is considering retirement, and geography would play a large role in his decision. The Braves were pretty much the best fit in that regard.

Colon got a HUGE raise from what the Mets gave him last year. The Braves probably asked what it would take for him to sign right now, his agent threw out a number, and the Braves agreed.

I think the Braves are showing the optimal blueprint for building a roster during that awkward transition season between rebuilding and true contention. Mismanaging that transitional season has scuttled many rebuilds, and I think the Braves are handling it nearly perfectly.
 
Enscheff said:
I agree. They realized immediately that they weren't in the market for impact talent, so they pounced on everyone's fallback options before other teams even had a chance to fall back to those options and drive up the price on those guys.

While I'm a little disappointed that the bug FA acquisitions are Dickey and Colon, I think they were the right moves and I think Coppy played his hand perfectly so far.
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Here's the thing: A team that REALLY wants to compete doesn't make these moves. Yes, these guys have been decent performers the last few years BUT they are both way past 40. They are ticking time bombs waiting to go off. Am I surprised that this is the way things have gone? No. In fact, I predicted it.

But its such a waste of opportunity. It's a clear attempt at pandering to the masses on a pretend to compete basis where part of the pretense is to hold talent in house that are likely much more valuable to the team as trade pieces in effort to get better for when they can legitimately be competitive.

I've been saying for two years that 2017 won't be the target year because the timing is bad. The FA market is horrid. Trade possibilities for acquiring talent is counter productive to the strategy of a rebuild (trading young talent away that you strove so hard to acquire in the first place).

I guess it's still possible for the FO to do what I consider to be the impossible which is bring in great value without giving up greater value this offseason. But, I don't see it.

I think you'll likely see the 2017 Braves as being:

SP: Teheran, Colon, Folty, Dickey, Wisler (They may move to bring in a lefty like De La Rosa to mix in)

RP: Johnson, Viz, Withrow, Krol, Cabrera, Ramirez, Rodriguez

Lineup: Inciarte, Swanson, Freeman, Kemp, Markakis, Garcia (could see a slight upgrade here), Jace, Flowers/Recker

Bench: Flowers/Recker, Smith (wasting away his value), K Johnson, Francouer, Util Inf (maybe a name guy on his last legs like Utley gets signed for 2B and Jace becomes UI)

And there you have it, your competitive 2017 Atlanta Braves. Isn't everyone excited? Isn't the ability to pretend a little while worth cutting a little long term value?
 
Not that I'm opposed to the move, but what type of pitcher do we get if we add Colon and Dickey's salaries?
 
depley said:
All I know is he is pitching in winter ball and has started 2 games with a 0.00 ERA and 12Ks to 1BB 5 hits in 9 innings
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Yeah, he's not fully developed. We may not even get the most out of one year of fatboy, which doesn't lead to prospect that Wisler automatically becomes expendable.
 
Horsehide Harry said:
Here's the thing: A team that REALLY wants to compete doesn't make these moves. Yes, these guys have been decent performers the last few years BUT they are both way past 40. They are ticking time bombs waiting to go off. Am I surprised that this is the way things have gone? No. In fact, I predicted it.

But its such a waste of opportunity. It's a clear attempt at pandering to the masses on a pretend to compete basis where part of the pretense is to hold talent in house that are likely much more valuable to the team as trade pieces in effort to get better for when they can legitimately be competitive.

I've been saying for two years that 2017 won't be the target year because the timing is bad. The FA market is horrid. Trade possibilities for acquiring talent is counter productive to the strategy of a rebuild (trading young talent away that you strove so hard to acquire in the first place).

I guess it's still possible for the FO to do what I consider to be the impossible which is bring in great value without giving up greater value this offseason. But, I don't see it.

I think you'll likely see the 2017 Braves as being:

SP: Teheran, Colon, Folty, Dickey, Wisler (They may move to bring in a lefty like De La Rosa to mix in)

RP: Johnson, Viz, Withrow, Krol, Cabrera, Ramirez, Rodriguez

Lineup: Inciarte, Swanson, Freeman, Kemp, Markakis, Garcia (could see a slight upgrade here), Jace, Flowers/Recker

Bench: Flowers/Recker, Smith (wasting away his value), K Johnson, Francouer, Util Inf (maybe a name guy on his last legs like Utley gets signed for 2B and Jace becomes UI)

And there you have it, your competitive 2017 Atlanta Braves. Isn't everyone excited? Isn't the ability to pretend a little while worth cutting a little long term value?
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Every time you bring this up, I go back to this theory: if the Braves had indication that the 2017 rotation would be anchored by 4 of Teheran, Folty, Newcomb, Wisler and Blair, they likely would have made moves like the ones you have been advocating.

However, the lack of progress from that group of pitchers delayed the competitive window by at least one year. The trade for Kemp was the first move they made with that fact in mind.

I fully believe that if those pitchers were ready, we would have seen Olivera dumped outright, a player like Ces signed for LF, someone like a Desmond acquired for 3b, and perhaps a real push for a pitcher like Archer made. Now that the competitive window has been pushed back at least a year, we see Kemp, Dickey and Colon, all acquisitions that cost the organization zero future wins/value.
 
I think the acquisition of Dickey, Colon, and possibly one more veteran will end up setting up a good situation for Wisler and Blair. I'd prefer to see both have an extended period of success at AAA before their next tour of duty at the MLB level. If they string together 2-3 months of good work in AAA, you look to trade one of your veteran stop-gaps.
 
Enscheff said:
Every time you bring this up, I go back to this theory: if the Braves had indication that the 2017 rotation would be anchored by 4 of Teheran, Folty, Newcomb, Wisler and Blair, they likely would have made moves like the ones you have been advocating.

However, the lack of progress from that group of pitchers delayed the competitive window by at least one year. The trade for Kemp was the first move they made with that fact in mind.

I fully believe that if those pitchers were ready, we would have seen Olivera dumped outright, a player like Ces signed for LF, someone like a Desmond acquired for 3b, and perhaps a real push for a pitcher like Archer made. Now that the competitive window has been pushed back at least a year, we see Kemp, Dickey and Colon, all acquisitions that cost the organization zero future wins/value.
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It's not the acquisition of Kemp, Dickey and Colon that bothers me. It's the fact that they will hang on to assets like Teheran, Inciarte/Smith, Jace, Flowers, Markais, Kemp, even Freeman should the right offer come along, pretty much all of the pen when they should be taking advantage of the current market conditions which is a heavy sellers market. All because they feel like they have to at least provide the appearance of a competitive team for 2017 as they move into the new park, even though it has never been in the cards for reality.

To be clear, I am NOT advocating trading ANY player just for the sake of trading him. But, I think the Braves should still be in a position of being open minded about trades that may hurt short term but be a significant gain long term.

The Braves are in a holding pattern. Their work outside the organization with FA signings and trades appears to be of the type designed to hold position while the rest of the process (internal development of talent) catches up. I think that is likely a situation full of missed opportunity.
 
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