Braves sign Freeman to 8 year 135M deal! *Updated to 135m*

I am getting so sick and tired of the Jason spiel. If he can put it together is getting very tiresome. He is what he is. Immense talent, great athlete, awesome in the outfield, and an excellent base runner. Erratic hitter with a terrible swing who is inconsistent.
 
zitothebrave said:
Heyward has one terrible season His numbers outside of 2011 are .268/.359/..457 (fulldiclosure, didn't calculate sluggin it just guessed since his 12-13 and 10 were right next to each other) Freddie is sitting at .285/.358/.466

Aside from Jason's bad year he and Freddie have been about equals offensively. Freddie has a higher BABIP, and that's the big difference.
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I'm sorry, but why are we suddenly taking out numbers to show that players are equal?

I think Heyward has all the upside in the world, but that doesn't mean anything until it translates to the field. Given the production from the two players up to this point in the career I give Freddie the long term deal every day of the week. That doesn't mean that Heyward can't be great...I think we saw flashes of that last season, and a couple of years ago, but for the most part he's been inconsistent, and injury prone.
 
thethe said:
I'm not sure why we can't say this without some taking it as an attack on Jason. Jason is a joy to watch but Freeman was/is/always will be a better hitter than Jason.
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Agreed. It's not an attack on Heyward to say that Freeman is a better pure hitter. Heyward is the better all around player because of his speed and defense but as far as being a pure hitter, Freeman has him beat, even though Heyward is a very good hitter in his own right. The Braves are quite lucky to have two guys that are this young and this good. Here's to hoping that Heyward gets paid by the Braves soon.
 
50PoundHead said:
Freeman's hitting fundamentals are better than Heyward's, but Heyward is the better all-around player. If it all comes together for Heyward, he'll be a monster, but there's something in his approach that seems to make him more vulnerable to slumps. No one is slump proof, but Freeman looks like he is going to be one of those guys who will be pretty consistent.

Don't know about Freeman's power potential. He may be one of those guys who could successfully sacrifice average for power. He reminds me of Kent Hrbek, who I saw a lot of up here in Minnesota.
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Freeman reminds me a lot of Mark Grace, except with more power. Grace was a line drive hitter that hit a ton of doubles, used the whole field and brought absolutely nothing to the team with his legs. Grace is a better fielder than Freeman but Freeman improved a lot in 2013 as a fielder.
 
thethe said:
It won't be as high as it was but I would expect Freeman to hit for higher than average BABIP's each season. When you cover the whole plate which doesn't allow the defense to shift on you in addition to all the line drives he hits then you are going to have some balls find holes.
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Freeman's 2012 season was a fluke. Freeman will always carry a high average and higher than average BABIP.
 
And I was making an observation on how I see Jason as a player. Wasn't complaining or whining like most of you want me to. I was stating the obvious. He is what is right now. Can he get better? Sure he can, but I don't believe he will ever meet those lofty expectations. Fairly put on him or not.
 
Orphan Black said:
I'm sorry, but why are we suddenly taking out numbers to show that players are equal?

I think Heyward has all the upside in the world, but that doesn't mean anything until it translates to the field. Given the production from the two players up to this point in the career I give Freddie the long term deal every day of the week. That doesn't mean that Heyward can't be great...I think we saw flashes of that last season, and a couple of years ago, but for the most part he's been inconsistent, and injury prone.
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WE're taking out a season that was clearly effected by many freak seasons. We have 4 years of Heyward's work and only one was an outlier, pretty easy to exclude is it not? If Freddie is hurt this year and tanks I"d do the same for him.

Also Jason is the superior player. Even if Freddie is way better of a hitter, Jason is so far ahead of him defensively and in baserunning it's not funny.
 
zedsdead said:
My only problem is with the terrible swing part. Is he Griffey Jr no but he has far from a terrible swing
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Part of the problem is that you have a large collection of people who think they know what they're looking at in a swing when they don't. It's the same people who think McCann is a bad defensive catcher and Chris Johnson isn't a terrible defensive 3B. They're not looking for the right things and stats will prove them wrong.
 
thethe said:
It won't be as high as it was but I would expect Freeman to hit for higher than average BABIP's each season. When you cover the whole plate which doesn't allow the defense to shift on you in addition to all the line drives he hits then you are going to have some balls find holes.
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Definitely. But I think his true talent level right now is a mid 800 OPS and not the 900 OPS he posted last year. Of course his walk rate and k rate have improved since he's come up so his ceiling is higher then that.
 
zitothebrave said:
Part of the problem is that you have a large collection of people who think they know what they're looking at in a swing when they don't. It's the same people who think McCann is a bad defensive catcher and Chris Johnson isn't a terrible defensive 3B. They're not looking for the right things and stats will prove them wrong.
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Wow...I think Heyward does have issues in his swing (I won't call it ugly though), but I also believe that McCann is a good catcher, and I don't believe Chris Johnson is terrible at 3rd (nor am I saying he's Brooks Robinson over there). It boggles my mind how often you are wrong.

Heyward can hit pitches down the middle...that's about it. He struggles on balls in because he jams himself, and he can't reach balls on the outside part of the plate because he stands so far from the plate. When Heyward is going good it's because he's hitting the pitches down the middle. When he is going bad it's because he's fouling those pitches off or missing them all together. Heyward also has almost zero chance when he's behind in the count with 2 strikes. He chases a lot in that situation.
 
AUTiger7222 said:
Freeman's 2012 season was a fluke. Freeman will always carry a high average and higher than average BABIP.
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I think 2011 is pretty close to the norm with Freeman in regards to BABIP. His actual average will depend on his strikeout rate. At his current level he will be a 290-300 or so hitter imo. If he gets that K rate into the mid teens then I think you'll see him regularly post 300+ batting averages.
 
I'm not sure where the Jason isn't consistent stuff comes from. He had one bad year in 2011 because of injuries. He still walked more and k'd less than a typical Freeman year and stll got a WAR of 2 out of it. Last year was the first time Freddie went over 1.8. The wRC+'s were already posted so no need to show it again. There seems to be a ton of faith that FF is going to maintain that .371 BABip and I wonder if people think CJ is going to maintain his as well.

I guess if you want to argue who's the better hitter after Freddie just had what might very well be his career year(hope not though) then go ahead but there's a pretty big gap between these two when it comes to making an impact day in and day out. Heyward is well worth the money Freddie got and more. Also Simmons is a beast and I hope we lock him up soon.
 
zitothebrave said:
Part of the problem is that you have a large collection of people who think they know what they're looking at in a swing when they don't. It's the same people who think McCann is a bad defensive catcher and Chris Johnson isn't a terrible defensive 3B. They're not looking for the right things and stats will prove them wrong.
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I guess we can assume that Brian Kenny and his Shredder are not on you Christmas gift list now that they have taken the opposite view as yours re: McCann?
 
Orphan Black said:
Heyward also has almost zero chance when he's behind in the count with 2 strikes. He chases a lot in that situation.
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I hate to bring up facts but Heyward is better behind in the count than Freeman. You pretty much described Freeman before this year. We complained all the time in 2012 because he chased pitches off the plate. The difference in 13 was that he made more contact on them but still was chasing. Freddie k's nearly 50% behind in the count.
 
Orphan Black said:
Wow...I think Heyward does have issues in his swing (I won't call it ugly though), but I also believe that McCann is a good catcher, and I don't believe Chris Johnson is terrible at 3rd (nor am I saying he's Brooks Robinson over there). It boggles my mind how often you are wrong.

Heyward can hit pitches down the middle...that's about it. He struggles on balls in because he jams himself, and he can't reach balls on the outside part of the plate because he stands so far from the plate. When Heyward is going good it's because he's hitting the pitches down the middle. When he is going bad it's because he's fouling those pitches off or missing them all together. Heyward also has almost zero chance when he's behind in the count with 2 strikes. He chases a lot in that situation.
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Ummmmmmmmmmmm

Yeah this is what I was talking about almost perfectly

This is Heyward's heat map vs league average in run creation.

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basically anything that's not blue or purple is above league average.

ANd of course he's almost a sure out with 2 strikes, most hitters are. I'm gonna post the OPS of Jason and Freddie with 2 strikes for their careers. .551 and .523. I'd ask for you to guess which one is which but who cares, it's a futile task. Just to hammer the point home, Inevitable Hall of Famer Chipper Jones .687. There's a reason you want to be ahead as a hitter or pitcher, you potential success is much higher, baseball 101.

This is litereally what I was talking about in my previous post. People say things based on guy reactions not facts. Johnson is a terrible defender, Last year was his banner defensive season and it came to a -8.8 UZR/150
 
thewupk said:
I think 2011 is pretty close to the norm with Freeman in regards to BABIP. His actual average will depend on his strikeout rate. At his current level he will be a 290-300 or so hitter imo. If he gets that K rate into the mid teens then I think you'll see him regularly post 300+ batting averages.
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Agreed.
 
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