Confederate Monuments

57Brave said:
That too was eradicated.

Your point -- that the North had their form of slavery too ?

More of that ole time both sides ....

C'mon Hawk ...

How's about reports of Trump's Eastern European models -- I mean we could go on.

Wasn't that at the heart of HRC's child porography ring, that she held child slaves ?

Unions ?

Wasn't that the cure to the situations you gave above, at least in US. Then the monied argued that belonging to a union too was a form of slavery ... College Republicans and the John Birchers and the Libertarians bought on to that because they didnt have to bargain for labor and could pay whatever they liked with no repurcussions

Does taking out a mortgage a form of slavery. I once had a boss that told me he didn't know how to motivate me because I didnt own anything or owe anything.

Is holding ones roof over his head a form of slavery ?



Owning by deed, bartering with, putting a price on humans = slavery



Please, no more hypotheticals or what if's or whatabouts //

reality is ****ed up and complicated enough right now
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those are among the main points I was trying to make. Just because I don't want to ONLY concentrate on the South's sins during their use of slavery doesn't mean I approve of it, I just think if we're going to condemn wrong we should condemn all wrong which I thought was what you were saying as well. Isn't that akin to only condemning one group of violent protesters and justifying or excluding the others?
 
" one group of violent protesters and justifying or excluding the others "

Read the quotes and check the link Julio provided -- don't buy into what Trump and his are saying.

The permit was for Saturday at nood in the park, the Unite the Right assembled heavily armed looking for a riot Friday.

shoot Fridays weeks before

Impending Race War ----- Ever heard of that?

You keep going back to that both sides meme.

Tell me again, what does antifa stand for ?
 
57Brave said:
1 and 2 of course

2 I fidn slavery abhorrent in Yemen.

What difference does that make ?

One side of the war fought to eradicate slavery in N America and the other didn't

I am tire of hypotheticals. The reality pf the past year is enough to deal with without a bunch of what if's
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So the North, where slavery was still legal AFTER Lincoln had declared all southern slaves free, was fighting to eradicate slavery?

The North was fighting to take away the choice of the South. Now we can all agree that the South was making a terrible choice. But let's stop propping up "Honest Abe" (who was still scheming to ship all the slaves out to whatever backwater hellhole he could call a colony) as the great emancipator.

The Emancipation Proclamation didn't free a single soul, because the South wasn't listening to him at that point. The issue was so important to him that he even waited for a battlefield victory to make his speech instead of proclaiming it as soon as it was written. Nothing says urgency like waiting for the best time to look good. Then after the war was over we get real emancipation for the slaves in the South AND in the North. You realize that right? The slaves in the North at the time of the start of the Civil War, at the time of the Emancipation Proclamation, and at the end of the Civil War, were still slaves. Not former slaves, freed by the good deeds of the northeners who were supposedly fighting so hard against the evil stain of slavery.

The North was not fighting to free the slaves in the South. The North was fighting to make slaves of everyone in the South. Mission accomplished for what, about 100 years?
 
Jaw said:
So the North, where slavery was still legal AFTER Lincoln had declared all southern slaves free, was fighting to eradicate slavery?

The North was fighting to take away the choice of the South. Now we can all agree that the South was making a terrible choice. But let's stop propping up "Honest Abe" (who was still scheming to ship all the slaves out to whatever backwater hellhole he could call a colony) as the great emancipator.

The Emancipation Proclamation didn't free a single soul, because the South wasn't listening to him at that point. The issue was so important to him that he even waited for a battlefield victory to make his speech instead of proclaiming it as soon as it was written. Nothing says urgency like waiting for the best time to look good. Then after the war was over we get real emancipation for the slaves in the South AND in the North. You realize that right? The slaves in the North at the time of the start of the Civil War, at the time of the Emancipation Proclamation, and at the end of the Civil War, were still slaves. Not former slaves, freed by the good deeds of the northeners who were supposedly fighting so hard against the evil stain of slavery.

The North was not fighting to free the slaves in the South. The North was fighting to make slaves of everyone in the South. Mission accomplished for what, about 100 years?
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"Ev'rybody's talking 'bout
Bagism, Shagism, Dragism, Madism, Ragism, Tagism
This-ism, that-ism, is-m, is-m, is-m "

This isn't complicated.

Slavery (however you want to define it) is bad
War is bad
Fighting war to preserve slavery is worse
Celebrating those that fought that war to preserve slavery is even worse

Speaking of north v south in race relations Malcolm X street name was Detroit Red. Not South Carolina Red or Alabama Red or ...
George Wallace won the Wisconsin primary in '68
Bigotry knows no geographical location
I have absolutely no interest in re arguing the Civil War.
History gets written by the winners - I guess the lesson there is don't pick fights you have no moral,military or financial chance of winning

What is your point ?
 
Glad y'all got a thread to circle jerk over what's next.

If anything offends anyone, take it down (unless a white dude is offended, of course)
 
sturg33 said:
Glad y'all got a thread to circle jerk over what's next.

If anything offends anyone, take it down (unless a white dude is offended, of course)
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Glad you're willing to have an open-minded debate and contribute to the conversation.
 
You're not open-minded, Julio... any opinion you've heard that doesn't coincide with yours has been met with usual diatribe of racism and nazism.
 
Was talking to a colleague of mine... white guy.

Was talking about disgusting everything was and Trump's press being so bad. He told me he was from the south and grew up idolizing Lee... He has a framed portrait of him in his living room. Told me he has decided to move it to the back room, because he's afraid of how people will react coming to his own.

He said he didn't approve of the slaves, but that it was a different time. Also reminded me that he can't speak completely objectively about it because he has no ancestors who were slaves, but that he thought people probably shouldn't be as upset about it as they are if they knew the history and more about Lee.

I can definitively say this guy is NOT racist and his reasons for liking Lee were thoughtful. Yet, he now he feels the need to hide his own belongings in his own home. How sad is that?
 
sturg33 said:
Was talking to a colleague of mine... white guy.

Was talking about disgusting everything was and Trump's press being so bad. He told me he was from the south and grew up idolizing Lee... He has a framed portrait of him in his living room. Told me he has decided to move it to the back room, because he's afraid of how people will react coming to his own.

He said he didn't approve of the slaves, but that it was a different time. Also reminded me that he can't speak completely objectively about it because he has no ancestors who were slaves, but that he thought people probably shouldn't be as upset about it as they are if they knew the history and more about Lee.

I can definitively say this guy is NOT racist and his reasons for liking Lee were thoughtful. Yet, he now he feels the need to hide his own belongings in his own home. How sad is that?
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http://theatln.tc/2fDOn38
 
sturg33 said:
I've already explained in the other thread... tired of hearing the same responses so no use doing it again
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I didn't read it because this weekend that thread lost me so much going on.

But if your argument is it's the same thing as book burning I disagree. This should have been done long ago. Where's the chart of most of the statues were built(some with KKK money) during Jim Crow and during Civil Rights movement to prove a point.

Not sure why you think this is slippery slope. I think most of us have already said we'd draw the line at founding fathers or presidents(although I won't lose any sleep over Johnson's removal).
 
sturg33 said:
You're not open-minded, Julio... any opinion you've heard that doesn't coincide with yours has been met with usual diatribe of racism and nazism.
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Hmmm. I'd say that my opinion on the Confederate monuments is in the minority of folks who've contributed to the discussions. Yet everybody seems to have a escaped being called a nazi or a racist.

If you'd like to convince me why it's unfair to broadly apply the Nazi label to people who march shoulder-to-shoulder with Nazis in defense of white nationalism, I'll listen.

I did say that people who "like" Confederate monuments are aligning themselves with white supremacism, which is not the same thing as saying that they are white supremacists. I explained my reasoning for believing that, and I'd be interested in your specific response.
 
sturg33 said:
I've already explained in the other thread... tired of hearing the same responses so no use doing it again
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I was hoping for something more, dunno, more compelling.

Erase history/hurt feelings/slippery slope...it's pretty rote and halting compared to the much more richly contextualized arguments for what those monuments mean, why they exist, and why moving them from places of honor can be meaningful.
 
I don't want to see the monuments removed especially the generic ones that just honor the confederate soldier. Most of those folks didn't even own slaves, they didn't join to fight for a terrible institution like slavery. They joined because VA, NC, etc. was their home and they felt more tied to their state than to the nation. My great-grandfather was 8th VA calvary CSA just as his grandfather had been part of Washington's army 90 years before. Those men while they were on the wrong side of history, they do not deserve to be called traitors or dishonored in any way in service to their state. Ask yourself two questions, first you own a farm below the MD line, Sherman's forces are advancing burning all in their path, what would you do? Secondly, what if the British had defeated us in 1812? Would the American Uprising of 1776 be looked upon like the CSA is today? Just some questions to ponder.
 
VirginiaBrave said:
I don't want to see the monuments removed especially the generic ones that just honor the confederate soldier. Most of those folks didn't even own slaves, they didn't join to fight for a terrible institution like slavery. They joined because VA, NC, etc. was their home and they felt more tied to their state than to the nation. My great-grandfather was 8th VA calvary CSA just as his grandfather had been part of Washington's army 90 years before. Those men while they were on the wrong side of history, they do not deserve to be called traitors or dishonored in any way in service to their state. Ask yourself two questions, first you own a farm below the MD line, Sherman's forces are advancing burning all in their path, what would you do? Secondly, what if the British had defeated us in 1812? Would the American Uprising of 1776 be looked upon like the CSA is today? Just some questions to ponder.
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I agree with a lot of this. I do think you have to consider context like the location of the monument and what time frame it was put up.

I thought Trump's comparison to Washington and Jefferson was absurd but I do think there will likely come a time where there is a push for it.
 
I don't think that generic memorials are quite in the same category, though some of them do have verbiage which could be considered pretty objectionable. I would suggest moving them to cemeteries (my town actually did this some time ago, with a Confederate memorial and a Lee memorial) which seems like a more appropriate place than a courthouse or a public park.

FWIW, part the text on the memorial is:

All lost, but by the graves

Where martyred heroes rest

He wins the most who honor saves

Success is not the test

The world shall yet decide

In truth's clear far off light

That the soldiers

Who wore the gray and died

With Lee, were right.
 
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