sturg33
I
For people to not think this is the next step, they have not been paying attention.
It's already happening. Once you start giving in to these things, they won't stop
Confederate Monuments
- Thread starter Julio3000
- Start date
For people to not think this is the next step, they have not been paying attention.
It's already happening. Once you start giving in to these things, they won't stop
Julio3000
<B>A Chip Off the Old Rock</B>
Interesting result. Not unexpected, I'd suppose. Frankly, I fell into the "remain as a historical symbol" camp for a long time, but changed my mind when I learned more about their provenance and prominence.
The arc of history is long, but it bends towards justice.
The arc of history is long, but it bends towards justice.
acesfull86
Well-known member
But 57 told us not to deal in hypotheticals
Or just people unwilling to acknowledge a monolithic interpretation/translation of history.
Julio3000
<B>A Chip Off the Old Rock</B>
Nah, just baby steps. Let's start with the postbellum/20th century whitewashing (so to speak) of the Confederacy and the acknowledgement of its fundamental white supremacy.
Since you have repeatedly taken me to task for lacking in nuance, I'm still interested to hear who the good guys at the UTR march were, so I can make more accurate judgements.
Julio3000
<B>A Chip Off the Old Rock</B>
I don't disagree with that statement, either, but it does necessitate a good-faith reckoning with history.
I'd prefer to see communities decide to remove the monuments from places of civic honor and put them in museums or other didactic spaces where they are placed in context.
Let's do start with a contemporary analysis of "whitewashing" of the Confederacy, please.
I'm dying to learn more about this alternate view of history, where the Civil War was not fought over slavery.
I provided a tidy list of peoples, organizations, and mentalities two or so days ago. Since that didn't resound, I'll try to make it as simple as I possibly can; any person who attended the protest in support of the statue for ideological subscriptions non-embracive of white nationalism/supremacism/neo-nazism.
I understand your position is that every soul who attended for said cause is indirectly a neo-Nazi/racist/white nationalist/supremacist, though, so I get the inkling we aren't going to find common ground here.
sturg33
I
Interestingly though, the same logic doesn't apply for people marching next to communist flag waivers
http://www.nationalreview.com/artic...e-statues-whats-end-point-washington-monument
Once every Confederate monument in the country is down, what then? How is a statue of an ordinary rebel soldier in Durham, N.C., more offensive than a gorgeous building-sized tribute to slave-owning racist Thomas Jefferson on the Tidal Basin? We are reaching the point where, if the Washington Monument were to be blown up tomorrow, it would be anyone’s guess whether jihadists or the “anti-fascist” Left did it.
[...]
Among northern sophisticates and intellectuals, there is, I think, a persistent condescension toward all things southern. Call it Northism: the need to erect a kind of moral and mental barrier at the Mason Dixon Line. Yet slavery’s evil infected the North as well. Slavery wasn’t fully illegal in New York until 1827. The very capital of our country is named for a slaveholder. When it comes to slavery, there is no expunging the moral stain. There is no expiating the sin.
[...]
If a statue that has been standing in your city for years suddenly sends you into paroxysms of destructive rage, you are really determined to create a problem for yourself, and you’ll create another problem when it’s gone.
[...]
Even if taking down the statues is a good idea, this isn’t the moment to do it. Emotions are running hot. When a mob is in a frenzy, maintain order until tempers cool. Don’t give it space to destroy. Rich believes that the statues need to go because they are becoming “rallying points for neo-Nazis,” but I can’t believe that the white supremacists, small and feeble as their movement is, would disappear if all of the old Confederate statues were taken down. If anything, that would give them a fillip of energy, a recruitment tool. The best response to white supremacists is to let them march and let them speak — then ridicule and marginalize them. This isn’t hard: They’re already ridiculous and marginal. Civil War statues may be beloved by white supremacists, but they are a kind of speech, and the antidote to bad speech is more speech. Don’t care for a statue of Robert E. Lee? Fine. I don’t either. Let’s recontextualize it. Let’s put up a statue of Harriet Tubman next to it. History is an ongoing discussion.
Once every Confederate monument in the country is down, what then? How is a statue of an ordinary rebel soldier in Durham, N.C., more offensive than a gorgeous building-sized tribute to slave-owning racist Thomas Jefferson on the Tidal Basin? We are reaching the point where, if the Washington Monument were to be blown up tomorrow, it would be anyone’s guess whether jihadists or the “anti-fascist” Left did it.
[...]
Among northern sophisticates and intellectuals, there is, I think, a persistent condescension toward all things southern. Call it Northism: the need to erect a kind of moral and mental barrier at the Mason Dixon Line. Yet slavery’s evil infected the North as well. Slavery wasn’t fully illegal in New York until 1827. The very capital of our country is named for a slaveholder. When it comes to slavery, there is no expunging the moral stain. There is no expiating the sin.
[...]
If a statue that has been standing in your city for years suddenly sends you into paroxysms of destructive rage, you are really determined to create a problem for yourself, and you’ll create another problem when it’s gone.
[...]
Even if taking down the statues is a good idea, this isn’t the moment to do it. Emotions are running hot. When a mob is in a frenzy, maintain order until tempers cool. Don’t give it space to destroy. Rich believes that the statues need to go because they are becoming “rallying points for neo-Nazis,” but I can’t believe that the white supremacists, small and feeble as their movement is, would disappear if all of the old Confederate statues were taken down. If anything, that would give them a fillip of energy, a recruitment tool. The best response to white supremacists is to let them march and let them speak — then ridicule and marginalize them. This isn’t hard: They’re already ridiculous and marginal. Civil War statues may be beloved by white supremacists, but they are a kind of speech, and the antidote to bad speech is more speech. Don’t care for a statue of Robert E. Lee? Fine. I don’t either. Let’s recontextualize it. Let’s put up a statue of Harriet Tubman next to it. History is an ongoing discussion.
DaneHill
Well-known member
Hawk, I was actually taught in high school (Virginia) that the Civil War was about much more than slavery and that slavery is just the predominant reason passed down through our history. It was a while ago, so specifics escape me, but I want to say one big issue was economics and the tobacco crop industry. Anyway, I just recall being surprised about the other big issues that led to war and slavery was just a secondary issue later.
As for the Charlottesville protest, come on, there is no way some innocent person is just going to go hang out with a bunch of screaming white nationalists and Nazis because they didn't want to see this statue taken down. If that was their intention when the left the house, then I would bet they either turned right around when the saw the reality of the protest or stuck around only through the first 'Sieg Heil!' Let's follow that logic further, when the alt-right protesters began chanting 'Blood and Soil!', 'Jews will not replace us!' or 'F__k you, ***gots!', if those innocent protesters joined in, then they are no better and deserve condemnation not praise. I highly doubt they would have spoke up to their fellow protesters and said 'No no, guys, that's too far. That's not what we're here for. It's about the statue, remember? Can I get another tiki torch, mine went out?'
DaneHill
Well-known member
Sturg, sorry, but no, it is not the same logic (though I would probably move away from any communist flag wavers myself as I wouldn't want to be associated with that). Associating with differing groups of people counter-protesting racism is not the same as associating with differing groups of people supporting racism.
I will apologize though for calling your point about the growing talk regarding Jefferson and Washington monuments as dumb and irrelevant. That was unfair and I was annoyed. I'm keeping my ears peeled for that kind of talk too. The Sharpton comments were about the government should not be funding the maintenance and upkeep of the Jefferson Memorial, rather than tearing it down, because helping subsidize that upkeep is an insult to his family. That's a fair enough opinion, though I disagree with it and think most folks on both sides would disagree. There's always going to be government spending on things one disagrees with. That would be a line that I don't know where it would stop.
sturg33
I
This was a great post... but this is the post I most recognize.
The statue has been up for over 100 years... now all of the sudden people are outraged. We've given these folks (almost entirely leftists, I'd wager), enough leash where they felt emboldened that they could take on Lee.
Well, they got their wish. Lee's gone. Baltimore followed suit. If we think this is the end of the story, we're kidding ourselves. They will identify their next target for moral outrage, and will attack it with their usual tenacity of "agree with us or risk being called a xyz" and if that doesn't work, then the masked protesters of violence almost surely will... Because even if you object to it rationally, reasonable people like Julio will say your siding with neo-nazis...
sturg33
I
Seems like that's where the left would like it to be
zitothebrave
Connoisseur of Minors
Why shouldn't they feel emboldened?
Here's the reality, Lee, Jackson, Jefferson Davis, etc. are all traitors. THey're all losers. Did we erect monuments to Benedict Arnold, Cornwallis, or King George II after the Revolution? I don't recall a plethora of Grant or Sherman statues.
Jaw
It's OVER 5,000!
Yep. The founding fathers are definitely next. I expect crosses to be the next goal after that.