DOB: Braves offseason about to get a lot busier. - Gamel released.

"Wren made his bed and he has to sleep in it."

Wren is crap at making beds, right? The youngest team in the majors last year won 96 games. There is no reason these guys getting better and gaining experience can't continue to take steps. We have generally the same team as last year, but saying "this group has proven they can't get it done" is assinine on so many levels.
 
yeezus said:
"Wren made his bed and he has to sleep in it."

Wren is crap at making beds, right? The youngest team in the majors last year won 96 games. There is no reason these guys getting better and gaining experience can't continue to take steps. We have generally the same team as last year, but saying "this group has proven they can't get it done" is assinine on so many levels.
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Not sure how Frank Wren is at making his bed, so I can't answer your first question. The core group of this team hasn't done a thing in the playoffs, so all that regular a season success is just getting playoff series wins after wins, right? And there are plenty of reasons to say the team could be worse than season. Just because a player is young doesn't mean he will get better with each season.
 
How do you judge any baseball organization? It has to come down to wins and losses. The only issue up for discussion in baseball is how you weight the regular season vs the post-season. I probably weight the regular season more than most but there really isn't an argument I can make to those who weight the post-season more. In the end it is a question of taste. I like a team that is a solid contender year-in year out. Some might prefer the track record of a team like the Marlins over the Braves because of their post-season success on those few occasions they made it to the playoffs. As with all matters of personal preference, there is really not much to argue about there.

I do think, however, that the idea that a team can be optimized for the post-season is overrated. Sure there are a few things that help in the playoffs-a couple power pitchers in the rotation, power hitting, a great closer. But they are no guarantee. The Tigers have had the first two of those ingredients in spades in recent years and haven't won. The eight finalists after the wild card game is played have near-equal chances given the element of chance in a five or seven game series. The idea that there are one or two magical pieces of the puzzle (hello David Price and fill in your favorite second baseman) are going to put the Braves in the World Series is pretty dubious. What I ask of the GM each year is to put together a team that can contend and be proactive during the season about plugging whatever leaks develop. I definitely don't like the idea of going all-in because to me that mindset leads to short-sighted trades like the Teixeira and JD Drew deals. I like the mid-season trades we've made in recent years to get Bourn and Maholm because we've basically used spare parts to get those players, though some of those spare parts were likely to turn into decent major leaguers.
 
nsacpi said:
How do you judge any baseball organization? It has to come down to wins and losses. The only issue up for discussion in baseball is how you weight the regular season vs the post-season. I probably weight the regular season more than most but there really isn't an argument I can make to those who weight the post-season more. In the end it is a question of taste. I like a team that is a solid contender year-in year out. Some might prefer the track record of a team like the Marlins over the Braves because of their post-season success on those few occasions they made it to the playoffs. As with all matters of personal preference, there is really not much to argue about there.

I do think, however, that the idea that a team can be optimized for the post-season is overrated. Sure there are a few things that help in the playoffs-a couple power pitchers in the rotation, power hitting, a great closer. But they are no guarantee. The Tigers have had the first two of those ingredients in spades in recent years and haven't won. The eight finalists after the wild card game is played have near-equal chances given the element of chance in a five or seven game series. The idea that there are one or two magical pieces of the puzzle (hello David Price and fill in your favorite second baseman) are going to put the Braves in the World Series is pretty dubious. What I ask of the GM each year is to put together a team that can contend and be proactive during the season about plugging whatever leaks develop. I definitely don't like the idea of going all-in because to me that mindset leads to short-sighted trades like the Teixeira and JD Drew deals. I like the mid-season trades we've made in recent years to get Bourn and Maholm because we've basically used spare parts to get those players, though some of those spare parts were likely to turn into decent major leaguers.
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I don't know why anyone would want to be like the Marlins. I honestly don't. The Marlins all-time franchise record is a pretty terrible 1,566-1,768. In the 21 year history of the Marlins they've finished above .500 in a season just 6 times, just 2 times making the playoffs. Now those two times they ended up winning the World Series. But they've finished with 90 or more losses in a season 7 times in their history and 6 times they've finished dead last in their division and another year they finished 6th out of 7 teams in their division. 4 more times they've finished 4th in their division. So you're talking about 11 times out of 21 years that they've finished 4th or lower in their division. You can brag about them having won those 2 World Series the only 2 times they've made the playoffs. But I wouldn't take that over what the Braves have done since 1991. The Braves since 1991 have posted a record of 2,122-1,536. See that? The Marlins have just 30 more wins in their history than the Braves have losses since 1991. The Braves have 15 division titles, 5 World Series appearances and the WS win in 1995. They've got the WC Game appearance in 2012. So 16 seasons of postseason play in 22 years there has been postseason play since 1991. Just 2 losing seasons in 23 years and just 1 season of 90 plus losses. The Braves finished 4th that year. Their only finish of 4th or worse in the last 23 years. 19 times in 23 years they've finished 1st or 2nd in their division. Pretty darn good. Give me the Braves over the Marlins any day.
 
The Marlins disgust me as an organization, they were lucky in a lot of regards to winning 1 let alone 2 world series during that span.

I mean can you imagine being a fan, putting up with all those losing seasons than having Kevin Brown, Al Leiter, Gary Sheffield, Bobby Bonilla, Devon White, Charles Johnson, Robb Nen, etc, etc and wake up one day and they are all gone, only to put up with watching more pathetic baseball but watch the development of guys like Beckett, Burnett, Lowell, Lee, Pudge, etc only to be gone in a nonosecond.

The Braves are a good, if not great organization, that has provided us good to great baseball over a sustained period of time. Most of those teams have been at least capable of winning it all. For whatever reason, we can't seem to take the next step and bring home the big one. Lots of flukey things (see post on if were cursed) have happened throughout the years that are unexplainable, mostly bad luck.
 
Millwood1Hitter said:
The Marlins disgust me as an organization, they were lucky in a lot of regards to winning 1 let alone 2 world series during that span.

I mean can you imagine being a fan, putting up with all those losing seasons than having Kevin Brown, Al Leiter, Gary Sheffield, Bobby Bonilla, Devon White, Charles Johnson, Robb Nen, etc, etc and wake up one day and they are all gone, only to put up with watching more pathetic baseball but watch the development of guys like Beckett, Burnett, Lowell, Lee, Pudge, etc only to be gone in a nonosecond.

The Braves are a good, if not great organization, that has provided us good to great baseball over a sustained period of time. Most of those teams have been at least capable of winning it all. For whatever reason, we can't seem to take the next step and bring home the big one. Lots of flukey things (see post on if were cursed) have happened throughout the years that are unexplainable, mostly bad luck.
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I agree. But it is a matter of taste. There are fans out there who place overriding importance on world series rings.
 
stpeteirish said:
Wren's on the clock; his contract is up this year. Bet he'd love to have another 10-12 million to spend on someone like AJ Burnett, but he doesn't, and those overpays to Uggla and BJ are a big reason why. So they may end up costing him his job, and I'm all for accountability.

But why can't we raise payroll? Everybody else is, or so it seems.
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We don't raise payroll and everyone knows that....so obviously Wren knows that and he decided to hand out 2 huge contracts to two huge question marks, that's just not something you can do if you're the Braves.
 
Damn, Phillies just signed AJ Burnett to 1 year deal. Really always wanted to see what he could do working with a coach like McDowell in a low pressure situation like Atlanta, think he would have been dominant here if he would have come instead of going to the Yankees. Really would have liked to have seen him replace Hudson instead of Floyd/Garcia. He's getting up there in age but his stuff is still as good as you can find in MLB.
 
BRule said:
We don't raise payroll and everyone knows that....so obviously Wren knows that and he decided to hand out 2 huge contracts to two huge question marks, that's just not something you can do if you're the Braves.
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Why were Uggla and BJ huge question marks prior to signing the contracts? I mean c'mon.

I love how the people who are upset we didn't make any moves literally have no viable solution to what could have been done given our constraints. They're just second guessing moves that were made and not giving credit for us even being in the position to compete with our payroll.
 
Millwood1Hitter said:
Damn, Phillies just signed AJ Burnett to 1 year deal. Really always wanted to see what he could do working with a coach like McDowell in a low pressure situation like Atlanta, think he would have been dominant here if he would have come instead of going to the Yankees. Really would have liked to have seen him replace Hudson instead of Floyd/Garcia. He's getting up there in age but his stuff is still as good as you can find in MLB.
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A one year deal wouldn't have been a terrible idea, but man 16 million dollars. I don't think the Braves were willing to spend that much.
 
Gary82 said:
A one year deal wouldn't have been a terrible idea, but man 16 million dollars. I don't think the Braves were willing to spend that much.
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A quote said far too often and about far too many players when said in conjunction with your hometown Atlanta Braves. Baseball economy is out of control right now.
 
Gary82 said:
A one year deal wouldn't have been a terrible idea, but man 16 million dollars. I don't think the Braves were willing to spend that much.
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We added Doumit and Floyd for about 10M. We could have made room for Burnett, but he made himself available rather late in the off-season. I don't think we could have planned our off-season on the assumption he would be available.
 
NYCBrave said:
Why were Uggla and BJ huge question marks prior to signing the contracts? I mean c'mon.

I love how the people who are upset we didn't make any moves literally have no viable solution to what could have been done given our constraints. They're just second guessing moves that were made and not giving credit for us even being in the position to compete with our payroll.
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Really?

Uggla was a 1 trick pony with some of the worst D in the majors and he was turning 30....

Upton hadn't hit over 250 since 2008....his OBP had been falling off a cliff since 08....740 career OPS.....strikes out 26% of the time he's at the plate....did I mention he had become Jeff Francoeur in the OBP category? I think I did.....yeah.....so yeah....there were plenty of reasons to "face palm" at signing BJ to that contract.
 
Millwood1Hitter said:
Damn, Phillies just signed AJ Burnett to 1 year deal. Really always wanted to see what he could do working with a coach like McDowell in a low pressure situation like Atlanta, think he would have been dominant here if he would have come instead of going to the Yankees. Really would have liked to have seen him replace Hudson instead of Floyd/Garcia. He's getting up there in age but his stuff is still as good as you can find in MLB.
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There was no way the Braves could have given him 16 mil.
 
Some great stuff in this thread from page 58 to about 65 discussing the implications of Heyward, Freeman, Kimbrel going to arbitration.
 
Paul Hoynes of the Cleveland Plain Dealer reports that the Reds are nearing a six-year extension with Homer Bailey in the range of $100 million.
Reds general manager Walt Jocketty said earlier in the day that enough progress had been made with Bailey, that they expected a deal would get done. The 27-year-old has developed into one of the top starters in the National League, posting a 3.49 ERA, 1.12 WHIP and 199/54 K/BB ratio over 209 innings in 2013.

Yet people say Julio's deal at 7/44 at most is an overpay.

:facepalm:
 
Heyward said:
Paul Hoynes of the Cleveland Plain Dealer reports that the Reds are nearing a six-year extension with Homer Bailey in the range of $100 million.
Reds general manager Walt Jocketty said earlier in the day that enough progress had been made with Bailey, that they expected a deal would get done. The 27-year-old has developed into one of the top starters in the National League, posting a 3.49 ERA, 1.12 WHIP and 199/54 K/BB ratio over 209 innings in 2013.

Yet people say Julio's deal at 7/44 at most is an overpay.

:facepalm:
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Well we can kiss goodbye to keeping Minor because Minor is more proven than Bailey.
 
Heyward said:
Paul Hoynes of the Cleveland Plain Dealer reports that the Reds are nearing a six-year extension with Homer Bailey in the range of $100 million.
Reds general manager Walt Jocketty said earlier in the day that enough progress had been made with Bailey, that they expected a deal would get done. The 27-year-old has developed into one of the top starters in the National League, posting a 3.49 ERA, 1.12 WHIP and 199/54 K/BB ratio over 209 innings in 2013.

Yet people say Julio's deal at 7/44 at most is an overpay.

:facepalm:
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Apples and oranges. Bailey is one year away from FA, Teheran is 5.
 
AUTiger7222 said:
Well we can kiss goodbye to keeping Minor because Minor is more proven than Bailey.
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Minor is 4 years away from FA, Bailey is a FA at years end or was.

That being said, i could see us just play it out by year with him.

And given the contract Frank has given out, i'd hardly call it a given.
 
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