Ender

[chop2chip]

I agree that great defense in CF with a .700 OPS is probably close to average overall. Especially helpful if you can hit them 8th.

I think the idea is that Ender with his elite defense and a bat roughly equal to what it was last year (maybe a shade less) is a 3-4 WAR player over a full season. Basically that's what he's been since June 1st (224 PA): 284/.333/.373 (wRC+ 90).

Interestingly enough, that's nearly identical to his overall line since the start of last season: .289/.332/.381 (wRC+ 92)

Also, identical to his career numbers: .285/.328/.374 (wRC+ 90)

I think we have a pretty good idea of who Ender the player is and he's really valuable one at that.

 

[Pugfan]

If he steals 20-25 bases a year, how does that factor into his ops? I know it doesn't, but if he gets to 2b it's still sorta like a double

Base running Is factored into WAR. He has nice added value because of his base running and he only has grounded into 4 double plays this year. Plus, with Kemp on the team now he becomes much more valuable.

 

[yeezus]

Inciarte fWAR:
2014: 2.8 (118 games)
2015: 3.3
2016: 1.4 (78 games)

bWAR:
2014: 3.7
2015: 5.3
2016: 2

He's definitely an above-average player.

 

[chop2chip]

Inciarte fWAR:
2014: 2.8 (118 games)
2015: 3.3
2016: 1.4 (78 games)

bWAR:
2014: 3.7
2015: 5.3
2016: 2

He's definitely an above-average player.

Five WAR players are basically "all-star" caliber. (Even though, he's probably a overrated a bit by WAR)

Ender's awesome.

 

[Carp]

He's only 25, so his best offensive days could very well be ahead of him. May be he can put together a couple of years of above average production at the plate while playing great defense.

 

[thewupk]

He's only 25, so his best offensive days could very well be ahead of him. May be he can put together a couple of years of above average production at the plate while playing great defense.

So let me get this straight. We know exactly what Ender is offensively as a 25 year old. However Puig as a 25 year old has a lot of upside due to high BABIP fueled numbers from his first two years in the league?

 

[Enscheff]

So let me get this straight. We know exactly what Ender is offensively as a 25 year old. However Puig as a 25 year old has a lot of upside due to high BABIP fueled numbers from his first two years in the league?

You may have been the first person on the planet to compare Puig's offensive upside to Ender Inciarte's. Congratulations!

 

[thewupk]

You may have been the first person on the planet to compare Puig's offensive upside to Ender Inciarte's. Congratulations!

What I see from Puig is a player who's power has dropped and isn't benefiting from a high BABIP anymore. Same thing with Jose Abreu. And there is a difference between upside and expectations.

 

[gilesfan]

So let me get this straight. We know exactly what Ender is offensively as a 25 year old. However Puig as a 25 year old has a lot of upside due to high BABIP fueled numbers from his first two years in the league?

Puig has shown in the past an ability to hit very well. Inciarte has not. Certainly at age 25, he has the chance to grow offensively, but there is nothing in his past that suggest he's going to be much of a hitter.

 

[thewupk]

Puig has shown in the past an ability to hit very well. Inciarte has not. Certainly at age 25, he has the chance to grow offensively, but there is nothing in his past that suggest he's going to be much of a hitter.

While that's likely true he's still 25 and his best years are theoretically ahead of him. He's also increased his BB rate this year which is as good sign. Odds are that he's league avg or slightly worse hitter that plays great CF defense. Odds are that's better value than what Puig would bring.

 

[nsacpi]

As with Inciarte, I think Puig's career data (412 games, or about two and two-thirds seasons) provides the best picture of the player he is and is likely to be the next few seasons.

And his career slash line is: .288/.362/.474. That's pretty good.

Career WAR is 11.4, which comes out about 4 per season.

I think he's worth taking a chance on.

 

[Enscheff]

What I see from Puig is an immensely talented player with the work ethic of a welfare recipient. He will either figure out how to work and prepare like a professional athlete, or his career will turn to dust and he will be forgotten about before his contract is even up.

It's up to the Braves to decide whether they think the gamble is worth it that a 25 year old can mature and learn how to be a professional athlete. They took that exact chance on Kemp, and Kemp even wrote an article spinning the situation that way. Does Puig have a Braves jacket from 10 years ago that will give him the warm fuzzies from being a Brave? Can Puig even write an article in English? Probably not, but someone is going to take a chance on Puig growing up and it might as well be the Braves who really have nothing to lose.

 

[chop2chip]

What I see from Puig is an immensely talented player with the work ethic of a welfare recipient. He will either figure out how to work and prepare like a professional athlete, or his career will turn to dust and he will be forgotten about before his contract is even up.

It's up to the Braves to decide whether they think the gamble is worth it that a 25 year old can mature and learn how to be a professional athlete. They took that exact chance on Kemp, and Kemp even wrote an article spinning the situation that way. Does Puig have a Braves jacket from 10 years ago that will give him the warm fuzzies from being a Brave? Can Puig even write an article in English? Probably not, but someone is going to take a chance on Puig growing up and it might as well be the Braves who really have nothing to lose.

You aren't wrong here. Puig does have crazy upside. I just think you and gilesfan are turning the blindest of blind eyes to the character part. I mean... the Dodgers more or less admitted they tried to trade him and got no where. What's that saying? Where there's smoke there's fire.

 

[thewupk]

What I see from Puig is an immensely talented player with the work ethic of a welfare recipient. He will either figure out how to work and prepare like a professional athlete, or his career will turn to dust and he will be forgotten about before his contract is even up.

It's up to the Braves to decide whether they think the gamble is worth it that a 25 year old can mature and learn how to be a professional athlete. They took that exact chance on Kemp, and Kemp even wrote an article spinning the situation that way. Does Puig have a Braves jacket from 10 years ago that will give him the warm fuzzies from being a Brave? Can Puig even write an article in English? Probably not, but someone is going to take a chance on Puig growing up and it might as well be the Braves who really have nothing to lose.

Or they could see a player that hasn't really done much since June of 2014. I feel the league has adjusted to him the same way they adjusted to Jose Abreu and many other players who have made a splash when they first get to the show. I feel you are right that he doesn't have the greatest work ethic and has simply lived on raw talent alone to this point. Is he willing to learn? It's possible but I doubt it. From everything I've read his ego is too big for that. Maybe a AAA demotion brings him back to reality.

 

[gilesfan]

You aren't wrong here. Puig does have crazy upside. I just think you and gilesfan are turning the blindest of blind eyes to the character part. I mean... the Dodgers more or less admitted they tried to trade him and got no where. What's that saying? Where there's smoke there's fire.

Yeah, I really couldn't care less because he couldn't make the team worse. He is exhibit A of what this team should be searching for (outside of building up the farm, a separate issue).

 

[chop2chip]

Yeah, I really couldn't care less because he couldn't make the team worse. He is exhibit A of what this team should be searching for (outside of building up the farm, a separate issue).

But that's so damn easy to say when you have zero idea of what Puig is like. I think Puig is an awesome player and if this were a video game, I would be the first to trade for him again and again and again, but when the Dodgers are demoting him to the minor leagues when he's had a .400 OBP the last two months and he has the skills that he has, how does that not scream out to you that Puig is cancerous. And it's not just the Braves taking a moral stand (because God knows we have cut our corners in our recent past), but every team in baseball had their chance to get him for ten cents on the dollar and nobody took the bait. Puig is toxic.

 

[sturg33]

But that's so damn easy to say when you have zero idea of what Puig is like. I think Puig is an awesome player and if this were a video game, I would be the first to trade for him again and again and again, but when the Dodgers are demoting him to the minor leagues when he's had a .400 OBP the last two months and he has the skills that he has, how does that not scream out to you that Puig is cancerous. And it's not just the Braves taking a moral stand (because God knows we have cut our corners in our recent past), but every team in baseball had their chance to get him for ten cents on the dollar and nobody took the bait. Puig is toxic.

If he is as bad as you say he is then the Braves could just release him.

Trading for him could be a wake up call. You never know. The downside is so little, except of course we'd have to bench Markakis... and he is so awesome that that would be tough to swallow

 

[chop2chip]

If he is as bad as you say he is then the Braves could just release him.

Trading for him could be a wake up call. You never know. The downside is so little, except of course we'd have to bench Markakis... and he is so awesome that that would be tough to swallow

I haven't said anything against his character (other than the DV episode from last offseason). The market is making those judgments. There are 30 teams in baseball with varying needs and at different stages of competing and not a single one of them seems all that interested in taking him on.

 

[yeezus]

If he is as bad as you say he is then the Braves could just release him.

Trading for him could be a wake up call. You never know. The downside is so little, except of course we'd have to bench Markakis... and he is so awesome that that would be tough to swallow

the downside is little if you completely don't buy into attitude effecting others. most teams seem to care about that.

 

[Chico]

I think Puig needs to go to a team with more veteran leadership who is close to winning. The Tigers come to mind. I can see Miggy and Fielder putting a foot up his butt and teaching him how to be a man.