weso1
<B>Clique Leader</B>
It's a subtle troll.
Farewell to Wood, Peraza, Jimmy Johns, and Avilans.
- Thread starter CrimsonCowboy
- Start date
It's a subtle troll.
Yeah, our best pitching talent is in the low minors. Wisler is fine, he's obviously in the rotation for good now. But you have two spots open after that, and the list of guys to fill them is Banuelos/Folty/Perez/Jenkins. Not exactly super promising. And that's assuming Teheran works his issues out.
Taking Wood out certainly no longer makes pitching look like some big strength. If we sign a top FA, fine, but dang, we created a hole for the next 2 years where there really wasn't one.
weso1
<B>Clique Leader</B>
Ole smootness makes some good arguments.
I think people 'freaked out' about the Heyward trade because it kicked off the rebuilding phase. There was consternation about whether or not a retooling was even necessary, and uncertainty about how the rest of the offseason would play out. A lot of that malaise carried over when the Braves signed Markakis because the front office chose to paint him as an adequate replacement for the dynamic subtracted by the Heyward deal. Most fans came onboard with the effort after the Gattis and Kimbrel moves. Then, suddenly, it all made much more sense.
Very few people griped about Miller's potential. This situation is completely and entirely different. Olivera is a real gamble. Trepidation is completely natural, especially in light of the degree (and value beyond the diamond) of the talent surrendered.
My concern is not with Olivera. I think we all are intrigued by him. The issue is him being the centerpiece and then not receiving much else.
We definitely have holes at 3B, LF and C. I look at the Dodgers and I see a good trade partner there. Puig solves LF. But maybe they take a hard stance and say no Puig, Pederson, Urias or Seager. Ok understandable. So Olivera will be in the deal, ok cool, 3B is potentially solved at a reasonable price. But we still have a hole at LF and C, and the value for Wood/Peraza hasn't been equated yet.
So I see Austin Barnes, Grant Holmes and Jose De Leon there. Maybe the Dodgers won't add De Leon and are hardballing. They know we want Olivera. At the very least, we have to demand Holmes and Barnes instead of Bird/Paco. Barnes gives us a good option at C. Beth isn't our guy there, that's obvious. So what's our plan there? Barnes would have been too perfect.
Again, I think the Dodgers knew our love affair for Olivera, and played hard ball, and we blinked first. Olivera could potentially be a good option for us. The beef is simply the lack of good pieces in addition to him given the haul we sacrificed.
I have a hard time thinking we couldn't have potentially received a good, young player at 3B, C or LF for Wood/Peraza. We should have been in no hurry to deal either. I don't understand the timing, nor the return for a pair of really good assets. Could have just as easily moved both in the winter.
Let's say we do demand Barnes/Holmes, the deal looks a heck of a lot more feasible with a return of Olivera, Holmes, Barnes, draft pick.
2016 could have been:
Mallex-CF
Peterson-2B
Freeman-1B
Olivera-3B
Maybin-LF
Markakis-RF
Barnes-C
Simba-SS
Rotation:
Shelby
Teheran
Wisler
With Minor, Banuelos, Perez, Jenkins, Folty all options for the final 2 slots.
Bullpen:
Viz
Folty
Withrow
Simmons
McKirahan
Winkler
That's all without dipping in to free agency.
And then you add Holmes to the stable of Allard, Fried, Touki, Ricardo, Soroka. We'd have an envious wealth of arms in the low minors, depth in our rotation, and surely the financial freedom to add the right FA piece without the absolute necessity to do so.
We definitely have holes at 3B, LF and C. I look at the Dodgers and I see a good trade partner there. Puig solves LF. But maybe they take a hard stance and say no Puig, Pederson, Urias or Seager. Ok understandable. So Olivera will be in the deal, ok cool, 3B is potentially solved at a reasonable price. But we still have a hole at LF and C, and the value for Wood/Peraza hasn't been equated yet.
So I see Austin Barnes, Grant Holmes and Jose De Leon there. Maybe the Dodgers won't add De Leon and are hardballing. They know we want Olivera. At the very least, we have to demand Holmes and Barnes instead of Bird/Paco. Barnes gives us a good option at C. Beth isn't our guy there, that's obvious. So what's our plan there? Barnes would have been too perfect.
Again, I think the Dodgers knew our love affair for Olivera, and played hard ball, and we blinked first. Olivera could potentially be a good option for us. The beef is simply the lack of good pieces in addition to him given the haul we sacrificed.
I have a hard time thinking we couldn't have potentially received a good, young player at 3B, C or LF for Wood/Peraza. We should have been in no hurry to deal either. I don't understand the timing, nor the return for a pair of really good assets. Could have just as easily moved both in the winter.
Let's say we do demand Barnes/Holmes, the deal looks a heck of a lot more feasible with a return of Olivera, Holmes, Barnes, draft pick.
2016 could have been:
Mallex-CF
Peterson-2B
Freeman-1B
Olivera-3B
Maybin-LF
Markakis-RF
Barnes-C
Simba-SS
Rotation:
Shelby
Teheran
Wisler
With Minor, Banuelos, Perez, Jenkins, Folty all options for the final 2 slots.
Bullpen:
Viz
Folty
Withrow
Simmons
McKirahan
Winkler
That's all without dipping in to free agency.
And then you add Holmes to the stable of Allard, Fried, Touki, Ricardo, Soroka. We'd have an envious wealth of arms in the low minors, depth in our rotation, and surely the financial freedom to add the right FA piece without the absolute necessity to do so.
weso1
<B>Clique Leader</B>
Well said. And they gave that other site to that other dude?
Great post. Now, do we get both Barnes and Holmes? I doubt it, but I see no reason we couldn't have at least gotten Barnes. Take a real asset instead of the pick if you must. But if you push and they don't do it, back out. You know they're willing to part with Olivera, so give it time to see what he does when he comes back and reduce some of the risk.
That's what I don't get. We didn't have to make a deal. How did we become the ones desperate for a certain player at the deadline?
It's like we called and offered Johnson and Avilan, and they said, what about Olivera? And then we lost ourselves and ended up offering both Wood and Peraza and just grabbed some other pieces to save face.
Exactly, we didn't HAVE to make a deal. Wait until the deal is at least equal, or back out and shop them elsewhere for a fair price. We aren't under any mandate to win now. There's no looming free agency for Wood or Peraza. So hang on to your assets until you get maximum or at least fair value.
We potentially solved one hole when we could have easily solved two or at least added a stud for what we gave up.
I hope Olivera is great. I hope Bird is a stud. But given where we are as a franchise currently, the deal doesn't make sense no matter how you want to spin it. With a couple revisions (Barnes/Holmes), you can live. But there's no going back now. Somehow, we now have to find a C, LF and 2/3 starter, and we just gave up 2 of our best assets.
Braves1976
It's OVER 5,000!
I know the feeling, if Simmons goes too then..
KB21
Where's My Cup of Coffee?
I heard Kiley McDaniel talking about the deal tonight. His comment is that Olivera, even at his age, with his contract and value as a hitter, is more valuable than any of the top 100 prospects other than maybe Byron Buxton and Kris Bryant at the start of the year. Kiley says he is a player who will hit at least 15-20 home runs, hit for average, get on base, and be at least average defensively.
UNCBlue012
Well-known member
I sure as heck hope so.
That's kind of a weird statement, though.
Would Bryant, Buxton, Correa, Schwarber, Urias, Giolito, Seager, Pederson, etc. be given up for Olivera? Of course not. If they would, then holy crap, do that now.
It's just a weird thing to say. He has more value in what way?
NinersSBChamps
<B>Voted Worst Poster <br> 2015 (Co-Winner)</BR>20
If anything it should strike fear in Braves fans. Hart had to pay this much for a bat with endless question marks about his health and zero defense on a national league club. This is a sign of more bad deals to try and fix the issues he made for the team himself.
Yeah I feel like that too, I would think we could have gotten more for our part of the package. You would need a crystal ball to know how it will turn out for the players involved but looking at them as commodities in the present, it doesn't seem even.
If you believe we didn't overpay, I guess it's okay.
The other facet that hasn't been mentioned is that we didn't make them take on Chris Johnson's contract. They were obviously willing to take on money. Normally when teams take on salary, you give up more for them to do so. I'm not sure that would change my opinion too much in terms of personnel, but using Wood/Peraza to get Olivera, a pick and shed Johnson's contract is something that would be easier to stomach.
striker42
Well-known member
This is exactly it. When you fall in love with a player like the Braves did with Olivera, it becomes emotional and you can be exploited. The Dodgers knew exactly how crazy for Olivera Hart was and correctly judged that they wouldn't have to give up anything else of value. They probably could have asked the Braves to include Toussaint and we probably would have done it.
dak
Well-known member
Yeah, just listened to the Badler and McDaniel interviews that Shanks has on the Scout board. Good listens for those interested. The comment from KB above is definitely one of the more juicy aspects. Also, Kiley says he would rank Peraza around #100 on his prospect list today. Badler seems to pretty obviously like the deal from Atlanta's perspective. McDaniel is a little more measured in his analysis, which is typical of him. He definitely gives the impression that the deal makes sense for the Braves. He goes into quite a bit of detail on Peraza and what a more realistic expectation is of his MLB impact.
Tapate50
Well-known member
I mean I hope most of this is hyperbole, or else you have just inched closer to the deep end over the passed few weeks.
Tapate50
Well-known member
They took Arroyo's
Are they factoring in the Braves are a couple years away from contending at best? For all the stockpiling of pitching we have been doing, we are going to have to hit the FA/trade market to find a starter or 2 next year unless you want to go into the season with a top 3 of Miller/Teheran/Wisler