Farewell to Wood, Peraza, Jimmy Johns, and Avilans.

smootness said:
Then don't do the deal. You should never, ever allow another team to devalue the assets you're trading. The Dodgers reportedly love Wood, so you base the negotiations on what he is, not what he could be down the line.

And if they won't do that, then you back out. Again, we were not in a position of desperation; we did not have to make a trade. The Dodgers were in a much more desperate position than us, especially when Hamels and Price came off the market. We got diminished value for Wood, which is an indictment on the FO in this trade. It is not a defense.
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Value is what someone is willing to pay. We appear to think we know value but the Braves clearly felt that this was there value. Maybe they are wrong but people pretending to be experts on this board is too much to take right now.

Like I've said before, nobody would have thought Hanson/JJ/Beachy would have had no value after four years it happens quicklym
 
thethe said:
Braves are in a new position financially. I'm not anticipating any hometown discounts. Braves can pay Grienke 25 per year and still have a load of cash to play with.
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I'll believe it when I see it, name the last time the Braves dropped that kind of cash on a player especially a pitcher?
 
thethe said:
Value is what someone is willing to pay. We appear to think we know value but the Braves clearly felt that this was there value. Maybe they are wrong but people pretending to be experts on this board is too much to take right now.

Like I've said before, nobody would have thought Hanson/JJ/Beachy would have had no value after four years it happens quicklym
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This is just another way of saying that there is no such thing as a bad deal because whatever return comes in a trade is what the value was for that player.

Was Toussaint's value Gosselin and $10 million? I would say not even close.

Using your logic, we can't ever evaluate a trade. You just take it and accept that you couldn't get anything more. I think we could have gotten more for Wood and Peraza. But here's my point - even if we couldn't, then don't trade them. They have more value to us at that point than their return in a trade. I would rather have Wood and Peraza going forward than Olivera, Paco, Bird, and a pick.
 
gilesfan said:
http://www.si.com/mlb/2015/07/30/do...-team-deal-alex-wood-mat-latos-hector-olivera

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=27094

At first glance, Olivera appears to have a solid build but with a hint of being slightly overweight and out of shape, reminiscent of Miguel Cabrera after 25. His upper half looks like an aging ballplayer’s while his legs seem solid and sturdy, though he is currently rehabbing a pulled hamstring and has not seen Triple-A action since July 13th.

Defensively, Olivera appears limited to the corners. In my observation of him at third, he made all the routine plays cleanly and could have expended a bit more effort on others. He throws from the hip with a whip-like arm action that makes the ball loop and tail. His arm was average at best. There were some concerns with his elbow before signing with the Dodgers so it makes you wonder if there is/was something going on that would affect his throwing mechanics. I believe he is best suited for first base due to mobility, arm strength, and age.

The bigger concern for me is at the plate. His setup is significantly closed with his hands high behind his helmet. His first movement upon loading is to wrap the bat behind his head with the barrel pointing straight to the pitcher. This transitions into a long, loopy swing with which he tries to punch everything to right field. His bat speed seemed average to slow and was very noticeable when challenged on the inner half. Unless Olivera plans to open up his stance or gear up on inside fastballs, I don’t see his bat speed translating to the big leagues. The upside is that Olivera makes contact and seems to have command of his hitting zone (outer half and down), though he is a free swinger.

Overall, Olivera looks the part of a role player, not a $62.5 million man. –Colin Young
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While I don't like the trade I think some of this stuff written about Olivera is nonsense. Slow bat? You've got to be kidding me. Check out this video.
 
smootness said:
But this falls back on our overall strategy of loading up almost exclusively on arms leading up to this. If this is the kind of risk you have to take to add a guy like Olivera, giving up your 3rd or 4th best major league piece and one of your top prospects, then we made a miscalculation of the best way to rebuild.

You always have to have young arms, but it's ridiculous for us to load up on arms as a specific strategy, then turn around and overpay for a hitter while saying, 'Well, the market is bare.' We knew that 8 months ago, so we should have planned accordingly.
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And I didn't agree with our strategy of loading up on pitchers in every single deal either. In fact I was underwhelmed in pretty much every return we got on trades, although I understood why we had to do them. We "restocked" the farm system yes, but we didn't get anything back that excited me to a certain extent.
 
smootness said:
This is just another way of saying that there is no such thing as a bad deal because whatever return comes in a trade is what the value was for that player.

Was Toussaint's value Gosselin and $10 million? I would say not even close.

Using your logic, we can't ever evaluate a trade. You just take it and accept that you couldn't get anything more. I think we could have gotten more for Wood and Peraza. But here's my point - even if we couldn't, then don't trade them. They have more value to us at that point than their return in a trade. I would rather have Wood and Peraza going forward than Olivera, Paco, Bird, and a pick.
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It's really common sense... This was not a Heyward/Upton situation
 
gilesfan said:
http://www.si.com/mlb/2015/07/30/do...-team-deal-alex-wood-mat-latos-hector-olivera

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=27094

At first glance, Olivera appears to have a solid build but with a hint of being slightly overweight and out of shape, reminiscent of Miguel Cabrera after 25. His upper half looks like an aging ballplayer’s while his legs seem solid and sturdy, though he is currently rehabbing a pulled hamstring and has not seen Triple-A action since July 13th.

Defensively, Olivera appears limited to the corners. In my observation of him at third, he made all the routine plays cleanly and could have expended a bit more effort on others. He throws from the hip with a whip-like arm action that makes the ball loop and tail. His arm was average at best. There were some concerns with his elbow before signing with the Dodgers so it makes you wonder if there is/was something going on that would affect his throwing mechanics. I believe he is best suited for first base due to mobility, arm strength, and age.

The bigger concern for me is at the plate. His setup is significantly closed with his hands high behind his helmet. His first movement upon loading is to wrap the bat behind his head with the barrel pointing straight to the pitcher. This transitions into a long, loopy swing with which he tries to punch everything to right field. His bat speed seemed average to slow and was very noticeable when challenged on the inner half. Unless Olivera plans to open up his stance or gear up on inside fastballs, I don’t see his bat speed translating to the big leagues. The upside is that Olivera makes contact and seems to have command of his hitting zone (outer half and down), though he is a free swinger.

Overall, Olivera looks the part of a role player, not a $62.5 million man. –Colin Young
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This scared me a bit (or a lot) when I first read it because I think BP is the best source of prospect info available to the general public. All we can hope is that the Dodgers and Braves scouts know better than Mr. Young.

You also left out the part at the beginning of the article where they said pretty much what I've been saying the entire time: the Braves acquired what they believe to be an impact bat for $5M per year.

Atlanta lacked impact hitters both in the majors and in the upper levels of the minors. Olivera can help relieve some of that, and, despite being 30 years old, it’s not like he’s nearing retirement. They’ve also made it known through their stockpiling of arms that they feel it’s possible to turn their pitching depth into quality bats. The fact that they used Wood in this deal instead of a prospect may have thrown people off, but both sides are taking risks.

While the Braves have been big on adding prospects during their rebuild, an equally major part of the organization’s transition has been financial, and that absolutely cannot be overlooked here. They have freed quite a bit of payroll in trades this season, and they’ve spent a lot of time trying to free up even more. Part of that is to rid themselves of bad contracts tied to players who serve little purpose on a rebuilding team. Another part is to set themselves up to buy talent around the young core for the next competitive window.

The Braves added a bat they expect to be a solid part of that window, and they’ll be paying him a team-friendly amount during that span. The Dodgers are paying all of Olivera’s signing bonus plus part of the remainder of Bronson Arroyo’s contract. Add it up and Atlanta gets a bat for around $5-6 million a year. Consider that the Braves acquired Touki Toussaint, a high-ceiling prospect, for basically Arroyo’s contract, and it softens the blow of losing Wood a little more.

I won't quote it, but they also commented about how both sides took on risk. Wood may blow up (his peripherals are, in fact, regressing), and Peraza may be nothing more than a slap hitting utility guy.

One of my biggest complaints about the Atlanta front office under Wren was their complete inability to sell high on players that were very likely at the peak of their value. Pitchers like Hanson, JJ and Minor were not sold before they plummeted in value, and position players like CJ and Uggla were extended when everyone knew they were candidates for major declines. I can't exactly turn into a hypocrite and scream bloody murder when the new front office attempted to sell high on assets named Wood and Peraza just because I am currently a fan of those players.
 
Enscheff said:
One of my biggest complaints about the Atlanta front office under Wren was their complete inability to sell high on players that were very likely at the peak of their value. Pitchers like Hanson, JJ and Minor were not sold before they plummeted in value, and position players like CJ and Uggla were extended when everyone knew they were candidates for major declines. I can't exactly turn into a hypocrite and scream bloody murder when the new front office attempted to sell high on assets named Wood and Peraza just because I am currently a fan of those players.
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I agree with this. The problem from my standpoint is that I think we traded Wood and Peraza at a time when their value may be highest...for less value than they still actually have. So we traded them at their peak value but did not get peak value return.
 
thethe said:
Value is what someone is willing to pay. We appear to think we know value but the Braves clearly felt that this was there value. Maybe they are wrong but people pretending to be experts on this board is too much to take right now.

Like I've said before, nobody would have thought Hanson/JJ/Beachy would have had no value after four years it happens quicklym
Click to expand...

How does that relate to Wood? There are pitchers that blew up and there are pitchers that continued to do well. Just bc Hanson, etc. blew up doesn't mean Wood will.

Heck, the comp some people pulled up on Olivera was Fryman, who retired at age 33 and had 1 productive season over 30. Should we value Olivera lower because of Fryman?
 
Garmel said:
While I don't like the trade I think some of this stuff written about Olivera is nonsense. Slow bat? You've got to be kidding me. Check out this video.
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When was the video taken compared to the recent scouting report? Also, remember the pitching in Cuba is like low A level minor leagues. Average major league hitters destroy Cuban pitching.
 
gilesfan said:
How does that relate to Wood? There are pitchers that blew up and there are pitchers that continued to do well. Just bc Hanson, etc. blew up doesn't mean Wood will.

Heck, the comp some people pulled up on Olivera was Fryman, who retired at age 33 and had 1 productive season over 30. Should we value Olivera lower because of Fryman?
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Wasn't that our GM who brought up Fryman?
 
gilesfan said:
When was the video taken compared to the recent scouting report? Also, remember the pitching in Cuba is like low A level minor leagues. Average major league hitters destroy Cuban pitching.
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Plus, sometimes bat speed can play differently against actual live pitching compared to a batting practice showcase.

I have no idea what kind of bat speed he really has. That video looks fine to me; doesn't look elite, but good enough. But I'm no expert, and there are multiple people who have claimed his bat speed is fringy. There are also some who have said it's very good, so we'll just have to see.
 
gilesfan said:
When was the video taken compared to the recent scouting report? Also, remember the pitching in Cuba is like low A level minor leagues. Average major league hitters destroy Cuban pitching.
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This was taken last winter. You didn't even look at the video. This isn't about him taken taking on Cuban pitching. This is a film released to Major League teams showcasing his abilities. Watch the film and look at his bat speed. His bat is not slow.
 
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