Fredi fired

nsacpi said:
Well didn't they use Wren's attempt to fire Fredi as part of the case for getting rid of Wren. Small group politics does not get any more interesting than in the Braves FO.
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That's how it was portrayed, but the upper level deciders chose to have a p*ssing match instead of taking the chance to turn the page.
 
bravesfanMatt said:
All things equal. Aj directly contributed to two losses. You can't say if flowers put his fingers down the same gem would not have been thrown. But there is more of a chance that flowers catches the two throws. Not that complicated.
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Seriously? You can GUARANTEE the rest of us that Flowers would've made those plays? Willing to go so far as to wager your first-born/house/wife on that? Tyler's handled every play he'd ever been a part of flawlessly? Not one error, right?

Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying the probability Tyler made a better play wasn't higher, but people need to learn to stop talking in absolutes. There are none. NONE.

The sad truth in all this mess is that "the players play, and the Managers manage". If the players play well enough, there's not much managing for the Managers to do other than fill out the lineup card and keep peace in the clubhouse.

Was Fredi more guilty the last time Blair got shelled last week than Snitker was tonight? Was it A. J.'s fault? Is there any chance that Blair was simply in the middle of the plate way too often (like Folty's always been up until his last two starts)???
 
50PoundHead said:
The whole AJ thing reminds me of when the Twins recycled a bunch of guys at the end of their careers so they could reach milestones. The problem is that a player can become a millstone while seeking a milestone. I don't hate AJ like a lot of folks on here and I think his bad teammate stuff is way overrated. But he's reached the end. I just hope that in appreciation for the chance the Braves have given him he will return the favor and wear a Braves' uniform when he's inducted into the Hall of Fame.
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Anthony, exactly how many screen names do you have?
 
clvclv said:
Seriously? You can GUARANTEE the rest of us that Flowers would've made those plays? Willing to go so far as to wager your first-born/house/wife on that? Tyler's handled every play he'd ever been a part of flawlessly? Not one error, right?

Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying the probability Tyler made a better play wasn't higher, but people need to learn to stop talking in absolutes. There are none. NONE.

The sad truth in all this mess is that "the players play, and the Managers manage". If the players play well enough, there's not much managing for the Managers to do other than fill out the lineup card and keep peace in the clubhouse.

Was Fredi more guilty the last time Blair got shelled last week than Snitker was tonight? Was it A. J.'s fault? Is there any chance that Blair was simply in the middle of the plate way too often (like Folty's always been up until his last two starts)???
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Nah. Fredi all the way. He's an escape goat.

https://images.search.yahoo.com/ima...rumb=NY.zwnzC5U3&fr=yfp-hrtab-901&fr2=piv-web

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-VwUqIP3L5zA/TWY1S8hzgHI/AAAAAAAABIE/jSXUbqykwGg/s1600/TOP-STORY-3-GOAT.jpg
 
Cox texted Gonzalez on Tuesday morning after the AJC broke the story of his firing. “He texted me, so I called him,” Gonzalez said. “He didn’t know anything about it. … He felt terrible. He said, ‘I never saw this coming. We’ll talk more when you come home.’”


Either Bobby is a manipulative liar, or they're finally cutting him out of important front of house decisions. I hope it's the latter.
 
clvclv said:
Seriously? You can GUARANTEE the rest of us that Flowers would've made those plays? Willing to go so far as to wager your first-born/house/wife on that? Tyler's handled every play he'd ever been a part of flawlessly? Not one error, right?

Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying the probability Tyler made a better play wasn't higher, but people need to learn to stop talking in absolutes. There are none. NONE.

The sad truth in all this mess is that "the players play, and the Managers manage". If the players play well enough, there's not much managing for the Managers to do other than fill out the lineup card and keep peace in the clubhouse.

Was Fredi more guilty the last time Blair got shelled last week than Snitker was tonight? Was it A. J.'s fault? Is there any chance that Blair was simply in the middle of the plate way too often (like Folty's always been up until his last two starts)???
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What are you even talking about. The only two absolutes are that AJ made two early season mistakes that directly lead to losses. I am not talking about game calling or his missed pop upS. Or even his dropped ball last night. None of those could be said that they lead to the loss. Even though last nights would have drastically changed the first inning. But back to point. AJ made two mistakes that lead to loses. That was what the other poster was saying. That is what I am talking about. I don't care how ****ty AJ game calling and framing are in what I am saying. And no I can't say flowers makes those plays. Just like no one who blames Aybars ****ty defense could say Castro or Simmons would have made x play. But the fact that flowers is statistically a far better catcher than AJ. I like my chances.
 
KB21 said:
That process started in 1985 when Bobby Cox was the GM and put into place, along with Paul Snyder, the emphasis on pitching and player development. The Braves didn't have the benefit of having some valuable chips they could trade off for prospects. The majority of what they built back then was based on their hard nosed scouting ability.

When Coppy/Hart started this process a year ago, they had the benefit of having those valuable pieces they could flip to rebuild a struggling farm system that had eroded under the previous front office. As a result, this rebuild will likely be quicker because they will not have to spend years drafting the talent to develop. They traded for a big part of it in the past year.
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None of that is big news. Point is there are parallels. FWIW, they had a 2-time MVP as a trading piece but that asset was squandered by an inexperienced GM, who also happens to be a HOFer and probably still in consulted in some capacity.
 
zitothebrave said:
Cox texted Gonzalez on Tuesday morning after the AJC broke the story of his firing. “He texted me, so I called him,” Gonzalez said. “He didn’t know anything about it. … He felt terrible. He said, ‘I never saw this coming. We’ll talk more when you come home.’”


Either Bobby is a manipulative liar, or they're finally cutting him out of important front of house decisions. I hope it's the latter.
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Bobby knows how to text? :Gasp:
 
zitothebrave said:
Cox texted Gonzalez on Tuesday morning after the AJC broke the story of his firing. “He texted me, so I called him,” Gonzalez said. “He didn’t know anything about it. … He felt terrible. He said, ‘I never saw this coming. We’ll talk more when you come home.’”



Either Bobby is a manipulative liar, or they're finally cutting him out of important front of house decisions. I hope it's the latter.
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Or Bobby doesn't check his email
 
zitothebrave said:
Cox texted Gonzalez on Tuesday morning after the AJC broke the story of his firing. “He texted me, so I called him,” Gonzalez said. “He didn’t know anything about it. … He felt terrible. He said, ‘I never saw this coming. We’ll talk more when you come home.’”


Either Bobby is a manipulative liar, or they're finally cutting him out of important front of house decisions. I hope it's the latter.
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I'm not sure where this fascination to distance the team from anything relating to Bobby Cox comes from. The guy is one of the greatest managers of all time. He's probably the single most important figure in the Braves outstanding success of the '90s and early '00s. I'm definitely more willing to listen to what Bobby has to say on an issue than some MIT grad who has come up with some logarithmic formula and developed a new, convoluted statistic.
 
KB21 said:
I'm not sure where this fascination to distance the team from anything relating to Bobby Cox comes from. The guy is one of the greatest managers of all time. He's probably the single most important figure in the Braves outstanding success of the '90s and early '00s. I'm definitely more willing to listen to what Bobby has to say on an issue than some MIT grad who has come up with some logarithmic formula and developed a new, convoluted statistic.
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True, but that doesn't mean we should be captive to his opinions moving forward. I really do think it's time for Bobby and Schuerholz to take a big step back and let some of the newer minds have greater influence, especially Schuerholz. We've got the scouting and player development group back to where it needs to be, but that's only part of the equation. I don't think that means going all in on the analytics, but there has to be some new thinking.
 
I still don't like the fact you'd discount the guy who helped stockpile our organization before JS took over.

He's still a great baseball mind.

I'd personally cut JS before Cox. JS came here with the keys to the car and the highest payroll in the league. Cox built that car JS drove to the dance.
 
50PoundHead said:
True, but that doesn't mean we should be captive to his opinions moving forward. I really do think it's time for Bobby and Schuerholz to take a big step back and let some of the newer minds have greater influence, especially Schuerholz. We've got the scouting and player development group back to where it needs to be, but that's only part of the equation. I don't think that means going all in on the analytics, but there has to be some new thinking.
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IMO, new thinking got us Frank Wren and one of the worst farm systems in baseball.

It seems like some want to completely ignore any potential manager that has a tie to Bobby Cox. The line "new blood" is always used.

I'm not beholden to just looking at managers who have ties to Bobby. If you could give me any manager in baseball right now, give me Buck Showalter. He's by far the best manager in baseball today. He gets more out of his players than any other manager in the game. He's the one guy that I feel can take a crap team and actually get some production out of it.
 
KB21 said:
IMO, new thinking got us Frank Wren and one of the worst farm systems in baseball.

It seems like some want to completely ignore any potential manager that has a tie to Bobby Cox. The line "new blood" is always used.

I'm not beholden to just looking at managers who have ties to Bobby. If you could give me any manager in baseball right now, give me Buck Showalter. He's by far the best manager in baseball today. He gets more out of his players than any other manager in the game. He's the one guy that I feel can take a crap team and actually get some production out of it.
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It wasn't "new" thinking that screwed up the farm system. It was "bad" thinking. If anything, Wren and Demacio just chose the wrong guys. If one looks at their drafts, they took a mix of high ceiling/high risk and mid-ceiling/lower risk guys. The high ceiling guys--for the most part--didn't develop.

My concern is that there is a "too many cooks" problem right now and Bobby and JS are part of that. The old saying is that a camel is a horse built by a committee. I say let Hart and Coppolella set the direction now. Bobby can say what he wants within those confines and maybe he doesn't have the influence many here seem to believe he has. I am less concerned about Bobby than I am about Schuerholz. I always thought Schuerholz was overrated as a GM.

And for however good or bad Gonzalez was as a manager, he clearly wasn't getting this team to play professionally. There are a lot of reasons for that, but it's pretty clear that he lost the clubhouse. One can argue that the assemblage of players was a bad mix (in more ways than one), but it's the manager's job--perhaps his most important job--to keep things together.
 
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