GDT: 4/8/'15 - Atlanta Braves (Shelby) @ Miami Marlins (Koehler), Fredi showing off.

DirkPiggler said:
It's not like we can't give up on the season at some point in the future and still have time to tank our way to a better pick.

Might as well play to win as much as possible until you're 100% certain the team isn't going to catch lightning in a bottle. If the Braves are realistically eliminated at the All-Star break, or August 1st, or whenever, there's no reason why they couldn't bring up the Gwinnett roster and start "playing for the future"/ tanking games/ trying to win without the talent to do so. I agree that it's better to win 65 than 75 for the sake of the draft, but it's way too early to assume the worst.
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I didn't say not to play to win. In fact, I specifically said that's not what I am talking about.
 
Once a team is built, I want to see the players play their asses off and kick and scream their way to as many wins as possible. It's the job of the people upstairs to evaluate the team as they're building it and determine what the ceiling is and how adding or subtracting so and so will change that.
 
If you are specifically aiming at two rebuild seasons in the hopes of building a Juggernaut, you want every possible advantage during the rebuilding years because the little things add up to important pieces in the overall puzzle. That includes a better draft slot, and there isn't a GM (or President of Baseball Operations) out there who wouldn't agree with me.
 
Dalyn said:
Once a team is built, I want to see the players play their asses off and kick and scream their way to as many wins as possible. It's the job of the people upstairs to evaluate the team as they're building it and determine what the ceiling is and how adding or subtracting so and so will change that.
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I think you can make the decision to rebuild and still try to field a competitive team. I don't know why you have to try to be the worst team in baseball just because you are rebuilding.
 
Dalyn said:
I didn't say not to play to win. In fact, I specifically said that's not what I am talking about.
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You're saying the team did the wrong thing by adding veterans that could add a few wins, but not enough to get the team into contention. Am I understanding you correctly?

If those players are playing well enough to make this a .500 team, they can be dealt for more players and/or picks at the deadline. The team can bring up the young guys who likely aren't ready to fill those spots. That's not really playing not to win as much as it is playing to make the future team better. But the record will almost certainly suffer, which would theoretically get the team right back into protected draft pick territory.
 
ChapelHillMatt said:
I think you can make the decision to rebuild and still try to field a competitive team. I don't know why you have to try to be the worst team in baseball just because you are rebuilding.
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And I agree wholeheartedly with you. 80 wins isn't competitive.
 
DirkPiggler said:
You're saying the team did the wrong thing by adding veterans that could add a few wins, but not enough to get the team into contention. Am I understanding you correctly?
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That's pretty much it, yes. It hurts the 2017 team. Trading them at the deadline is a different story. I agree with you completely in that regard, and I hope we do that if they're playing well.
 
Dalyn said:
And I agree wholeheartedly with you. 80 wins isn't competitive.
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I think it is, you aren't that far away from w/card contention at that point.

Dirk's point is valid though. By bringing in more talent you can flip them, you should never shy away from bringing in good players. They give you options.
 
ChapelHillMatt said:
I think it is, you aren't that far away from w/card contention at that point.

Dirk's point is valid though. By bringing in more talent you can flip them, you should never shy away from bringing in good players. They give you options.
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Yes. It's a good point. One I've mentioned several times, and it wouldn't result in 80 wins. We would be "competitive" at the deadline and not fall into the trap of thinking it's more than what it is and trade them away. That's a different scenario, and it's one I hope sincerely that we're going for.
 
Dalyn said:
If you are specifically aiming at two rebuild seasons in the hopes of building a Juggernaut, you want every possible advantage during the rebuilding years because the little things add up to important pieces in the overall puzzle. That includes a better draft slot, and there isn't a GM (or President of Baseball Operations) out there who wouldn't agree with me.
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Apparently Hart does not.

I get your point. You do a NBA tank. NBA GMs will trade away players and sit guys with any injury discomfort to make it hard for the team to win.

I don't see how baseball is set up to support you.

If draft pick is important than you have to Astros tank. You don't sign a single vet. Cunnigham in CF. Terdo in RF. Don't trade for Shelby Miller, get multiple prospects. Etc, Etc.....But that is a 5+ year rebuild. This team is looking for essentially a 1 year.

We keep saying 2017, but it's really 2016. 2017 is supposed to be a team that has a solid chance to win it. So you need to be good in 2016 unless you are planning worst to first again.

We didn't tank to get a draft pick. We sold off 1 year of studs for multiple years of high ceiling guys hoping we hit on 1 and maybe get a couple of useful players that will play cheap. We traded Gattis b/c he was at peak value and no place to play. We traded CK b/c we got another top prospect and financial flexibility 2016 forward (unless we tie it up in Price or some other FA that will suck for us).
 
Dalyn said:
So we fielded a competitive team in 2014?
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Yes they were competitive, doesn't mean I have to agree with the way the roster was constructed. They could have won a few more games and found a way to get into the playoffs though. They weren't far away. That's why it was an option for Hart to try and add to it if he wanted and try and win one of the w/cards but then in 2016 where would we be? I think he made the right decision.
 
Dalyn said:
We won't know that until after the deadline.
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Why? B/c flipping guys (I want to do this) does not mean you're trying to maximize your pick. It should mean that you feel like you are getting better assets than the one you give up.

If we trade CJ and/or Callaspo we probably get better with Paraza.

If we trade Stults and/or Cahill we could get better with our pitching prospects or making room for Minor

If we trade Gomes/EY/Maybin we could get better with the Cuban guy or even Terdo....the bar is low

If we trade any of the bullpen guys, why couldn't we get better with the arms in our farm system. It's a bull pen.

Not saying any of that will happen, but just making the point that trading guys does not mean you want to get the 11th pick instead of the 17th pick.
 
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