GDT: 5/31, Braves @ Giants; Day Off For Freeman

gilesfan said:
Upton has a 158 OPS+. He's playing in a park where it's almost impossible to hit well in and yet is hitting .307/.368/.545. Jace has an 88 OPS+ with a line of .269/.335/.344.

If you want to use WAR:

Fangraphs: 1.6 Upton to 1.0 for Peterson. Projected to full season is a WAR advantage for Upton of over 2 wins.

Bref: 2.1 Upton to 0.9 for Peterson. Projected to full season is a WAR advantage for Upton of 6.8 wins to 2.9 wins.
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Ok,now lets consider the fact of salary and control and then the deal looks better for the Braves.
 
gilesfan said:
That's only in regards to Heyward.
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I could say the same to you and Sturg as well.

I just want to see if there is some consistency on both sides here. Defense at second base is more important IMO than defense in RF.
 
thethe said:
Ok,now lets consider the fact of salary and control and then the deal looks better for the Braves.
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You have an unhealthy amount of homerism in you. Even if you were to make the case that Peterson would hypothetically be generating 2-3 wins at 500k, you win games with a player like Upton; you have a nice little story about how much production per salary you have with Peterson.

If you wanted to hypothetically acquire Justin Upton right now, Peterson would be one of possibly 3-4 players you would have to trade before SD would even listen.
 
thethe said:
I could say the same to you and Sturg as well.

I just want to see if there is some consistency on both sides here. Defense at second base is more important IMO than defense in RF.
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If you have read any of my posts, I think WAR tends to over rate defense....which would make even less of a case for Peterson and more of a case for Upton.
 
Heywood said:
Oh yeah. He does Bobby speak one day and you guys say he's a clueless moron who wasn't watching the same game we were on TV. Today he points out the obvious to everyone and he suddenly isn't backing his players. He's so uncomfortable with Julio that he let him stay in there to hit for himself and pitch to another batter. If Julio didn't give up the double, Fredi leaves him in there to try and finish the inning.

Like I said, your over analysis of Fredi being "harsh" on Julio is absurd. Julio is in his 3rd year, he isn't a rookie anymore. If you think Julio is going to be butt hurt or that this puts added "pressure" on him, then Julio shouldn't be pitching in the big leagues nor should he start any meaningful decisive, elimination, or playoff game for us. EVER. If he has the mental strength of a little leaguer, he can never be our #5 starter let alone "ACE".

Aren't you a fan of not being politically correct? You've chastised Fredi before about his postgame interviews for being too bland or saying absurd things Bobby would say, yet he points out something completely obvious but isn't exactly throwing Julio under the bus and you think he has an agenda against Julio. Outrageous.

Bobby did say some things previously about certain players before. What Fredi said about Julio is hardly cardinal sin.
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The most important thing a manager can do is to manage people. Fredi sucks at it.

LOL politically correct? It has nothing to do with it. It's about handling the media in front of the cameras, and dealing with **** behind closed doors.
 
gilesfan said:
You have an unhealthy amount of homerism in you. Even if you were to make the case that Peterson would hypothetically be generating 2-3 wins at 500k, you win games with a player like Upton; you have a nice little story about how much production per salary you have with Peterson.

If you wanted to hypothetically acquire Justin Upton right now, Peterson would be one of possibly 3-4 players you would have to trade before SD would even listen.
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Plus you'd have to assume it's much easier to replace Jace Peterson than it is Justin Upton
 
Heywood said:


He wasn't exactly throwing Julio under the bus. Hardly any reason for you to be in an uproar about Fredi not "backing his player".

The obsession some of you have with whatever comes out of Fredi's mouth following the game is cringeworthy at times.
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I thought the same thing. Nothing wrong with what Fredi said.
 
thethe said:
So we can't use WAR in this argument?

How is it even a debate that it would have been a fair deal straight up using the results thus far?
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Because we were assuming all of the risk. They were getting a known commodity. Is it fair to assume the Indians should have only gotten Cliff Lee or Grady Sizemore for Bartolo Colon? Afterall the WAR alone.
 
gilesfan said:
You have an unhealthy amount of homerism in you. Even if you were to make the case that Peterson would hypothetically be generating 2-3 wins at 500k, you win games with a player like Upton; you have a nice little story about how much production per salary you have with Peterson.

If you wanted to hypothetically acquire Justin Upton right now, Peterson would be one of possibly 3-4 players you would have to trade before SD would even listen.
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For a half a season of Upton without draft pick compensation? Not so sure about that.

If the Padres fall out of it it will be interesting to see what they get for Upton.

Peterson looks to be about a 2 WAR player at a defensive premium position all under control for another 4+ years at a reasonable salary. For a team like the Braves that is immensely valueable.
 
thethe said:
So we can't use WAR in this argument?

How is it even a debate that it would have been a fair deal straight up using the results thus far?
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Because it's been 2 months??

And it would not have been a fair deal because you could trade Justin Upton today, June 1st, for a better long term player than Jace Peterson.
 
zitothebrave said:
Because we were assuming all of the risk. They were getting a known commodity. Is it fair to assume the Indians should have only gotten Cliff Lee or Grady Sizemore for Bartolo Colon? Afterall the WAR alone.
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Using hindsight, which is what I said in my original post, then the expos should never have made that deal.
 
chop2chip said:
Because it's been 2 months??

And it would not have been a fair deal because you could trade Justin Upton today, June 1st, for a better long term player than Jace Peterson.
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We will have to see if that happens. Not sure if anyone is going to give up a top prospect for 2-3 months of a player anymore.
 
Heywood said:
Oh yeah. He does Bobby speak one day and you guys say he's a clueless moron who wasn't watching the same game we were on TV. Today he points out the obvious to everyone and he suddenly isn't backing his players. He's so uncomfortable with Julio that he let him stay in there to hit for himself and pitch to another batter. If Julio didn't give up the double, Fredi leaves him in there to try and finish the inning.

Like I said, your over analysis of Fredi being "harsh" on Julio is absurd. Julio is in his 3rd year, he isn't a rookie anymore. If you think Julio is going to be butt hurt or that this puts added "pressure" on him, then Julio shouldn't be pitching in the big leagues nor should he start any meaningful decisive, elimination, or playoff game for us. EVER. If he has the mental strength of a little leaguer, he can never be our #5 starter let alone "ACE".

Aren't you a fan of not being politically correct? You've chastised Fredi before about his postgame interviews for being too bland or saying absurd things Bobby would say, yet he points out something completely obvious but isn't exactly throwing Julio under the bus and you think he has an agenda against Julio. Outrageous.

Bobby did say some things previously about certain players before. What Fredi said about Julio is hardly cardinal sin.
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This is something about the suspect and not the crime itself.

I saw those quotes yesterday and I was frankly glad that they were said. Fredi simply acknowledged that Julio is better than how he pitched yesterday. I appreciate the honesty.
 
thethe said:
Using hindsight, which is what I said in my original post, then the expos should never have made that deal.
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So in other words the question you proposed in your original post is pointless and moronic so we shouldn't even bother pretending you're being serious.
 
thethe said:
For a half a season of Upton without draft pick compensation? Not so sure about that.

If the Padres fall out of it it will be interesting to see what they get for Upton.

Peterson looks to be about a 2 WAR player at a defensive premium position all under control for another 4+ years at a reasonable salary. For a team like the Braves that is immensely valueable.
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2 WAR player at 2B isn't any more valuable than a 2 WAR player at first base.
 
thethe said:
For a half a season of Upton without draft pick compensation? Not so sure about that.

If the Padres fall out of it it will be interesting to see what they get for Upton.

Peterson looks to be about a 2 WAR player at a defensive premium position all under control for another 4+ years at a reasonable salary. For a team like the Braves that is immensely valueable.
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"immensely valuable" is a bit much. Peterson is a solid utility player or possible starter. If the Braves want to compete, he has to be among the 2-3 worst everyday starters in the lineup. When you can easily replace someone, value is lost no matter what the salary is. Justin Upton is not easily replaced; there are dozens of 2B that you could replace Peterson with in which you lose little to nothing. Heck, the Braves could call up Peraza and probably get similar production at 2B.
 
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