Global Events & Politics Überthread

Hawk said:
And all of your posts were (and apparently still are) concentrated on conveniently lumping everyone involved in that 'protest' into the same pile. Which seems really lazy to me.

If you earnestly believe that everyone at that rally was either a neo-Nazi (or a chicken**** white supremacist apologist) then there's really no discussion to be had here.

I don't believe that, and I believe that the underlying issue was - at the very least - worthy of thoughtful protest/debate/free speech exercise. That's the extent of it. You keep lapsing back to this, "Well, who?!" pivot - it's simple: You put race baiters, neo-Nazis, and supremacists here and you put people who don't advocate for or espouse those beliefs there. As I said, the belief system is not bi-directional. In fact, I'd suggest that it runs downhill.

Anyways, what truly needs discussion here is your comment that neo-Nazis and white supremacists "propel" Trump and Trumpism.
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Um, my point of view is and has been that anyone who chose to involve themselves in that event would have been 100% clear on who was organizing it. So anyone who chose to associate themselves with it was was choosing those associations. Fair?
 
You seem mortally offended that other folks are being lumped in with the "Jews will not replace us" crowd . . . when it was never a secret who those folks were, what they did, or what they espoused.

You can't credibly deny that any more than you can say with a straight face that what was published about Breitbart was "overstated."

Whatever your supposed motivations are, you have to be accountable for the company you keep, right?
 
Julio3000 said:
Um, my point of view is and has been that anyone who chose to involve themselves in that event would have been 100% clear on who was organizing it. So anyone who chose to associate themselves with it was was choosing those associations. Fair?
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I think that's an awfully precarious assumption to hinge your entire argument on.
 
Cooky people flock to political events. The RNC/DNC are clearinghouses for the most bizarre people you could ever imagine.

I understand what you are saying, a 'neo-Nazi' planned this protest. But, from my perspective, it seems like that got lost in the shuffle. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm defending a phantom group of people. But at least I'm being very clear about what/who I'm defending.
 
Hawk said:
Cooky people flock to political events. The RNC/DNC are clearinghouses for the most bizarre people you could ever imagine.

I understand what you are saying, a 'neo-Nazi' planned this protest. But, from my perspective, it seems like that got lost in the shuffle. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm defending a phantom group of people. But at least I'm being very clear about what/who I'm defending.
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I think the bigger picture is that casually dismissing the wn types as merely the lunatic fringe while participating in and subsequently defending their direct actions is normalizing and mainstreaming their goals and beliefs, even if you disagree with them. Shifting the Overton Window--it's something they yammer about a lot. I don't see how the organizers and featured speakers of the march get lost in the shuffle, but ymmv.
 
As 'merely' the lunatic fringe? There is no other place to put them on the spectrum. That's as far as it goes.

I've "casually dismissed" white nationalist 'types' by correctly classifying them? Lol.
I've 'participated in' and 'subsequently defended' their 'direct actions' despite disagreeing with them? Lol. (and that doesn't even make sense)

The onslaught of narrow-mindedness continues.
 
Hawk said:
As 'merely' the lunatic fringe? There is no other place to put them on the spectrum. That's as far as it goes.

I've "casually dismissed" white nationalist 'types' by correctly classifying them? Lol.
I've 'participated in' and 'subsequently defended' their 'direct actions' despite disagreeing with them? Lol. (and that doesn't even make sense)

The onslaught of narrow-mindedness continues.
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So you don't think it's a big deal that people participated, en masse, in an event sponsored, organized, and attended by this lunatic fringe. Which you did, certainly, subsequently defend. But it's somehow narrow-minded to question whether it is corrosive or morally defensible to do so? And you don't think that defending it is normalizing the lunatic fringe, even if you (I mean, with some extreme parsing) personally disclaim them?
 
Hawk said:
As 'merely' the lunatic fringe? There is no other place to put them on the spectrum. That's as far as it goes.

I've "casually dismissed" white nationalist 'types' by correctly classifying them? Lol.
I've 'participated in' and 'subsequently defended' their 'direct actions' despite disagreeing with them? Lol. (and that doesn't even make sense)

The onslaught of narrow-mindedness continues.
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You've casually dismissed them by first eliding the fact that they organized the event, then by just waving a hand and saying, eh, well, people like their statues.
 
Julio3000 said:
So you don't think it's a big deal that people participated, en masse, in an event sponsored, organized, and attended by this lunatic fringe. Which you did, certainly, subsequently defend. But it's somehow narrow-minded to question whether it is corrosive or morally defensible to do so? And you don't think that defending it is normalizing the lunatic fringe, even if you (I mean, with some extreme parsing) personally disclaim them?
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I defended an event/cause which I perceive to have been co-opted (to some degree) by extremist groups.

And no, I don't think defending that 'it' is normalizing the lunatic fringe.

I'd humbly suggest that treating these groups as though they were, in any way, relevant (or influential) is far more normalizing than this contortion act you are putting on display.
 
Julio3000 said:
You've casually dismissed them by first eliding the fact that they organized the event, then by just waving a hand and saying, eh, well, people like their statues.
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Well, that's not what you said.

You said that my plotting of them on the lunatic fringe was a casually dismissive gesture.

And, just for the sake of accuracy, which has become irrevocably garbled in this discussion, Jason Kessler (a nominal extremist who was heavily involved in Charlottesville politics) organized this march (not 'them') ... and it came on the heels of a suit by the ACLU and a contentious public debate about the statue and local government. See the Wes Bellamy angle. See David Caron and Isaac Smith.

This thing gained steam over the course of a year. To portray the protest as though neo-Nazis dreamt it up out of thin air is a smoke and mirrors ploy.
 
But I'm still waiting on an explanation as to how white supremacists/neo-Nazis/racists propel Trump and Trumpism.

Unfortunately, I get the feeling that it's all going to end in tears and a bunch of name-calling.
 
Hawk said:
Well, that's not what you said.

You said that my plotting of them on the lunatic fringe was a casually dismissive gesture.

And, just for the sake of accuracy, which has become irrevocably garbled in this discussion, Jason Kessler (a nominal extremist who was heavily involved in Charlottesville politics) organized this march (not 'them') ... and it came on the heels of a suit by the ACLU and a contentious public debate about the statue and local government. See the Wes Bellamy angle. See David Caron and Isaac Smith.

This thing gained steam over the course of a year. To portray the protest as though neo-Nazis dreamt it up out of thin air is a smoke and mirrors ploy.
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Ok. So, the featured speakers?
 
Not all the posters featured a list of speakers.

And, let's be honest, most people don't know (or care) who Richard Spencer is.
 
Hawk said:
Not all the posters featured a list of speakers.

And, let's be honest, most people don't know (or care) who Richard Spencer is.
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Do an image search for "unite the right" posters/flyers.

Totally defensible, huh?
 
Julio3000 said:
So, you say Jason Kessler is a "nominal extremist?" Why the qualifier?
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Because he evolved from a "former Democrat" investigative citizen journalist who just really liked Trump and hated Obama to a bonafide "white nationalist" (which was questioned by the real white nationalists) over the course of like six months.
 
Julio3000 said:
Do an image search for "unite the right" posters/flyers.

Totally defensible, huh?
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I did.

unitetheright-joinordie.jpg


This one the SPLC featured.

1502136054255.jpg
 
Julio3000 said:
Whoa. Hang on, though. Did the ORGANIZER of the event invite the speakers?
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I'm not disputing that. But I am challenging your stated belief that "100%" of attendees knew who the speakers were (or even, that they should have known).
 
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