Global Events & Politics Überthread

[mqt]

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Sorry, that was a massive oversimplification. China is not going to give an inch of power away. But I could see them adopting some semblance of “freedom” and high quality of living for those willing to help them influence global attitudes toward China. I would never advise trusting them to not be ready to ship your ass to the dungeons if you dissent, but I could see some faux-freedom.

 

[Tapate50]

Nah. Probably not

 

[chop2chip]

Sorry, that was a massive oversimplification. China is not going to give an inch of power away. But I could see them adopting some semblance of “freedom” and high quality of living for those willing to help them influence global attitudes toward China.

Whatever you think is happening in America right now is not even 1% close to what China’s been doing for over 50 years (and is actually getting worse!)

Any academic that scorns the US for greener pastures in China is at best woefully naive and at worst a hypocrite.

So no… the west isn’t going to be losing any of its talent to the Chinese. China can’t even educate their own elite which is why they send all of them to the West

 

[nsacpi]

We have lots of those already

Very comfortable with the IQ distribution of our country on the high end.

The distribution of IQ is fine. But there are elements of American culture that hold Americans back. That's why the children of immigrants do so much better than the children of fully assimilated Americans. As outsiders with one foot in other cultures, we are uniquely placed to assess the strengths and weaknesses of American culture. We adopt the good parts and reject the bad. The proof of the pudding is our children, who far outdistance the children of fully assimilated Americans by every metric.

 

[nsacpi]

I’m not sure what incentives we’re giving to our best and brightest in certain fields to stick around if other countries decide to bridge the funding gap.

The United States is not a uniquely virtuous country. It might be a good thang if the flow of intellectual talent started going in another direction.

 

[nsacpi]

Whatever you think is happening in America right now is not even 1% close to what China’s been doing for over 50 years (and is actually getting worse!)

Any academic that scorns the US for greener pastures in China is at best woefully naive and at worst a hypocrite.

So no… the west isn’t going to be losing any of its talent to the Chinese. China can’t even educate their own elite which is why they send all of them to the West

China yes. But the pastures look increasingly green in many other places. I also don't agree about the last part about China not being able to educate their elite. They certainly can. Their top universities are extremely good and more difficult to get into than our best schools. Chinese students look overseas for a surprising variety of reasons. Often they want to sample a foreign culture. It is a very healthy curiosity.

 

[mqt]

Whatever you think is happening in America right now is not even 1% close to what China’s been doing for over 50 years (and is actually getting worse!)

Any academic that scorns the US for greener pastures in China is at best woefully naive and at worst a hypocrite.

So no… the west isn’t going to be losing any of its talent to the Chinese. China can’t even educate their own elite which is why they send all of them to the West

I don’t think this would be an overnight phenomenon, but money talks and I could simply envision China spending buckets to give themselves an opportunity to gain an advantage they didn’t previously have. If the US commits to what the Trump Admin is attempting on trade, migration and science, why wouldn’t they strongly consider a push to fill the vacuum left?

As for what that would mean about those who took China at their word, we *are* talking about Academics here, simultaneously being a bunch of the most gullible idiots ever is like their whole shtick.

 

[nsacpi]

For a bunch of gullible idiots, academics are surprisingly strategic about their career choices. You don't have to worry about them flocking to China. Other places, yes. In fact, it started happening before Trump returned to office and is now accelerating. Other countries have greatly stepped up their game when it comes to creating a culture and support system that will attract top-flight scientists. It is not just about what we do. Although we have been doing our part.

 

[chop2chip]

I don’t think this would be an overnight phenomenon, but money talks and I could simply envision China spending buckets to give themselves an opportunity to gain an advantage they didn’t previously have. If the US commits to what the Trump Admin is attempting on trade, migration and science, why wouldn’t they strongly consider a push to fill the vacuum left?

As for what that would mean about those who took China at their word, we *are* talking about Academics here, simultaneously being a bunch of the most gullible idiots ever is like their whole shtick.

Europeans probably on the whole have a worse opinion of China than even the Americans for economic and Russia reasons.

And again… what the Trump admin is doing with trade and immigration is a drop of rain in the Pacific Ocean to what China has done for years.

 

[chop2chip]

China yes. But the pastures look increasingly green in many other places. I also don't agree about the last part about China not being able to educate their elite. They certainly can. Their top universities are extremely good and more difficult to get into than our best schools. Chinese students look overseas for a surprising variety of reasons. Often they want to sample a foreign culture. It is a very healthy curiosity.

maybe but those countries can’t compete with respect to job opportunities post graduation. Talent will go to where the money is

 

[nsacpi]

Talent will go to where the money is

Money talks but I don't think it is the main motivation for top researchers. Most of all they value a stimulating environment and inspiring colleagues. And they stay away from environments with lots of uncertainty and the anxiety that comes with that.

 

[mqt]

Europeans probably on the whole have a worse opinion of China than even the Americans for economic and Russia reasons.

And again… what the Trump admin is doing with trade and immigration is a drop of rain in the Pacific Ocean to what China has done for years.

I guess my point is just that paradigms shift and a disruption like this can be the impetus for them. If China’s manufacturing dominance is sufficiently challenged by the shift in US import demand, I think many are underestimating the downstream changes that could lead to. As with all countries, the China of today is not going to be the China of tomorrow, just as it’s not the China it used to be, either pre or post-Mao.

 

[thethe]

Let’s skew right. Why not?

Don’t want to imagine a world where us mids become overvalued

That’s actually the whole point. The high end is so prevalent here we can carry you all!

 

[thethe]

I mean, unless you do some crazy shit like turn away a bunch of foreign students contributing to that distribution, run an intimidation campaign extorting and disparaging your top universities, stop funding a bunch of scientific endeavors and just have a generally “fuck the scientists and academics” vibe. I’m not sure what incentives we’re giving to our best and brightest in certain fields to stick around if other countries decide to bridge the funding gap. China could easily bend their societal rules to attract academic talent.

We aren’t saying fuck the science and that’s the distinction. There is an element to the current brand of scientist and academic that we direct our angst.

 

[thethe]

The distribution of IQ is fine. But there are elements of American culture that hold Americans back. That's why the children of immigrants do so much better than the children of fully assimilated Americans. As outsiders with one foot in other cultures, we are uniquely placed to assess the strengths and weaknesses of American culture. We adopt the good parts and reject the bad. The proof of the pudding is our children, who far outdistance the children of fully assimilated Americans by every metric.

Americans decide what holds America “back”. And we have been doing fine for a long time.

 

[thethe]

The United States is not a uniquely virtuous country. It might be a good thang if the flow of intellectual talent started going in another direction.

Bye! Have fun living in ‘not America’.

Realistically, not many want to or will take that option. If recent tourism numbers hold you are actually yet again on the opposite side of where the current moment is.

 

[mqt]

We aren’t saying fuck the science and that’s the distinction. There is an element to the current brand of scientist and academic that we direct our angst.

This is basically the same thing the left says about straight white men. If you’re going to lead with worrying about how woke a scientist is or expecting that they come to the conclusions you do in order to be a “real” scientist, you’re pushing that group away. Others might not share in my belief for Chinese pragmatism, but I think the right does need to contend with the fact that there’s an increasingly adversarial relationship forming here.

 

[sturg33]

Money talks but I don't think it is the main motivation for top researchers. Most of all they value a stimulating environment and inspiring colleagues. And they stay away from environments with lots of uncertainty and the anxiety that comes with that.

Question. Do you believe some cultures are superior to others?

If yes, which ones and why? If not, why?

Thanks in advance, academic

 

[nsacpi]

Question. Do you believe some cultures are superior to others?

If yes, which ones and why? If not, why?

Thanks in advance, academic

I mentioned in another post how immigrants are uniquely positioned to embrace the good parts of American culture and reject the bad. And that the superior performances of our children relative to fully assimilated Americans validated this approach. So yes each culture has strengths and weaknesses. And some are better overall. But i also keep my eyes open. I deeply admire Japanese culture but also see its flaws and weaknesses, including the conformity. I have quite a few Hispanic friends and love many things about their culture, including the warmth and playfulness, the strength of family bonds, the food and dance music. But I could do without the chronic lack of punctuality. I always add 15 minutes when one of them tells me they'll meet me at a certain time..

Having lived in all the regions of this country I've formed some views about regional American culture. There are things I like about each. But my overall ranking would place the Northeast first and the South last, with the Midwest and West somewhere in between. Those are obviously very broad strokes because even similar states like Minnesota and Wisconsin have cultural differences. And you'll sometimes see big variations within a single state.

I'll add that a certain type of religiosity with emphasis on the authority of sacred texts can hold back a culture when it comes to acceptance of the spirit of enquiry. We saw that during the period when Confucian Orthodoxy reigned supreme in China. The condification and enforcement of Sunni orthodoxy in the Arab world caused it to lose its vibrancy in science and fall way behind. The Counter-Reformation caused some parts of Europe to fall behind in science. And the literalist approach taken by certain groups has a negative effect on intellectual life in certain parts of this country.

On the flip side cultural changes like the Haskalah or Jewish Enlightenment can cause a group that once lagged far behind because of its emphasis on a certain type of religious schooling to experience a sudden and dramatic leap forward.

Our cultural wars are nothing new. They are a continuation of a battle that began with the discovery of the Scientific Method in the 1600s and intensified during the Enlightenment. They are not unique to the United States. The French fought a bitter culture war lasting hundreds of years over the role of the Catholic Church in their educational system.

If you want to learn more I recommend David Wooten's The Invention of Science and Joel Mokyŕ's work on culture and the Industrial Revolution.

 

[sturg33]

I mentioned in another post how immigrants are uniquely positioned to embrace the good parts of American culture and reject the bad. And that the superior performances of our children relative to fully assimilated Americans validated this approach. So yes each culture has strengths and weaknesses. And some are better overall. But i also keep my eyes open. I deeply admire Japanese culture but also see its flaws and weaknesses, including the conformity. I have quite a few Hispanic friends and love many things about their culture, including the warmth and playfulness, the strength of family bonds, the food and dance music. But I could do without the chronic lack of punctuality. I always add 15 minutes when one of them tells me they'll meet me at a certain time..

Having lived in all the regions of this country I've formed some views about regional American culture. There are things I like about each. But my overall ranking would place the Northeast first and the South last, with the Midwest and West somewhere in between. Those are obviously very broad strokes because even similar states like Minnesota and Wisconsin have cultural differences. And you'll sometimes see big variations within a single state.

I'll add that a certain type of religiosity with emphasis on the authority of sacred texts can hold back a culture when it comes to acceptance of the spirit of enquiry. We saw that during the period when Confucian Orthodoxy reigned supreme in China. The condification and enforcement of Sunni orthodoxy in the Arab world caused it to lose its vibrancy in science and fall way behind. The Counter-Reformation caused some parts of Europe to fall behind in science. And the literalist approach taken by certain groups has a negative effect on intellectual life in certain parts of this country.

On the flip side cultural changes like the Haskalah or Jewish Enlightenment can cause a group that once lagged far behind because of its emphasis on a certain type of religious schooling to experience a sudden and dramatic leap forward.

Our cultural wars are nothing new. They are a continuation of a battle that began with the discovery of the Scientific Method in the 1600s and intensified during the Enlightenment. They are not unique to the United States. The French fought a bitter culture war lasting hundreds of years over the role of the Catholic Church in their educational system.

If you want to learn more I recommend David Wooten's The Invention of Science and Joel Mokyŕ's work on culture and the Industrial Revolution.

can you get your robot friend to summarize this essay?