Gonzalez or Wren; who's your goat?

ChapelHillMatt said:
I'll say it again, only posters on this board consider him a bad manager. He's well respected in the game of baseball.
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A lot of managers are "respected in baseball." That doesn't make them good managers.
Joe Buck is respected as an announcer. I don't know one person that likes him or thinks he's good, but he's respected.
 
Heyward said:
Sure, but Fredi doesnt make pitches or hit.

It's up to the players to execute.

Is it Fredi's fault Kershaw was dominant Game 1, is that on him?

Is it Fredi's fault Julio got rocked in Game 3?

Is it Fredi's fault we had pretty much 2-3 players hit all series, cant win like that.

The hate Fredi gets is out of damn control.
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Ugh, holy ****.
I have never blamed us losing the series entirely on Fredi. Never, ever, ever, not once..or even suggested it! I believe I said this in the other thread about it! It's like you don't even read what's said, you just NEED to defense Fredi so bad that you don't bother to read and comprehend. Please, for the love of god, start reading what is said. I don't know how many times I can repeat myself, or how many times you can change the argument to feature things I never said.
 
yeezus said:
Ugh, holy ****.
I have never blamed us losing the series entirely on Fredi. Never, ever, ever, not once..or even suggested it! I believe I said this in the other thread about it! It's like you don't even read what's said, you just NEED to defense Fredi so bad that you don't bother to read and comprehend. Please, for the love of god, start reading what is said. I don't know how many times I can repeat myself, or how many times you can change the argument to feature things I never said.
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Every manager makes dumb moves, jack.

You act like Fredi is the only manager to make bad moves.

I wonder what this board would do if Fredi took out Freeman in a tie game in the playoffs which Mattingley did to AGon.

Which is worse than Fredi has EVER done.
 
yeezus said:
A lot of managers are "respected in baseball." That doesn't make them good managers.
Joe Buck is respected as an announcer. I don't know one person that likes him or thinks he's good, but he's respected.
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Buck isnt all that bad imo, honestly.
 
yeezus said:
A lot of managers are "respected in baseball." That doesn't make them good managers.
Joe Buck is respected as an announcer. I don't know one person that likes him or thinks he's good, but he's respected.
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He was one of the candidates for manager of the year. Most people in the game feel he's done a good job since he was hired but I guess you know better.
 
yeezus said:
Ugh, holy ****.
I have never blamed us losing the series entirely on Fredi. Never, ever, ever, not once..or even suggested it! I believe I said this in the other thread about it! It's like you don't even read what's said, you just NEED to defense Fredi so bad that you don't bother to read and comprehend. Please, for the love of god, start reading what is said. I don't know how many times I can repeat myself, or how many times you can change the argument to feature things I never said.
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Do you think Bobby Cox was a good manager? If so tell me the difference in how he handled the team in the playoffs and how Fredi did? Heyward's argument is Fredi handled late game situations like most other managers do, even Hall of Famers. If Carpenter does his job and Kimbrel comes in for a 4 out save nobody cares about this. In fact if he uses Kimbrel for 2 innings and he has to use a lot of pitches to get through it (remember he does have a tendency to walk people) and then we get to game 5 and he's unavailable I bet people would bash Fredi for that as well.
 
ChapelHillMatt said:
Do you think Bobby Cox was a good manager? If so tell me the difference in how he handled the team in the playoffs and how Fredi did? Heyward's argument is Fredi handled late game situations like most other managers do, even Hall of Famers. If Carpenter does his job and Kimbrel comes in for a 4 out save nobody cares about this. In fact if he uses Kimbrel for 2 innings and he has to use a lot of pitches to get through it (remember he does have a tendency to walk people) and then we get to game 5 and he's unavailable I bet people would bash Fredi for that as well.
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There was a day off between game four and five.

But it isn't even worth discussing at this point. Clearly Fredi is a fantastic in-game manager.
 
Heyward said:
Every manager makes dumb moves, jack.

You act like Fredi is the only manager to make bad moves.

I wonder what this board would do if Fredi took out Freeman in a tie game in the playoffs which Mattingley did to AGon.

Which is worse than Fredi has EVER done.
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Just because Mattingly isn't good doesn't mean Fredi is.
 
The problem is that most here don't analyze the moves other managers make during the course of the year, so they have no idea how Fredi stacks up. Pretty much every fan base hates their manager, that's a fact.
 
I defended have defended the manager for a long time now using the "every team hates their manager" argument way back to when Bobby was manager and most people wanted him gone. I even backed Fredi when he decided to start Garcia in game 4, but not bringing in Kimbrel was the end of that. Good managers are capable of thinking outside the box, Fredi is not capable of that. The fact that he says he didnt even regret not bringing Kimbrel in only makes it worse. If we dont make the NLCS next year Fredi needs to go. This is/was a world series caliber team. The only reason Minor/Medlen/Teheran are not considered aces is because they dont throw 95+ mph.
 
cajunrevenge said:
I defended have defended the manager for a long time now using the "every team hates their manager" argument way back to when Bobby was manager and most people wanted him gone. I even backed Fredi when he decided to start Garcia in game 4, but not bringing in Kimbrel was the end of that. Good managers are capable of thinking outside the box, Fredi is not capable of that. The fact that he says he didnt even regret not bringing Kimbrel in only makes it worse. If we dont make the NLCS next year Fredi needs to go. This is/was a world series caliber team. The only reason Minor/Medlen/Teheran are not considered aces is because they dont throw 95+ mph.
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Yeah, they all really showed their "Ace" stuff in the playoffs.

I don't know how many times I have to say it, pitching is what sunk this team's ship.
 
What's to blame? We had a great year, overachieved the whole way until our young pitchers finally wore down. We could've beaten LA with a little more luck. We've got a good team and a lot to feel good about.
 
cajunrevenge said:
I defended have defended the manager for a long time now using the "every team hates their manager" argument way back to when Bobby was manager and most people wanted him gone. I even backed Fredi when he decided to start Garcia in game 4, but not bringing in Kimbrel was the end of that. Good managers are capable of thinking outside the box, Fredi is not capable of that. The fact that he says he didnt even regret not bringing Kimbrel in only makes it worse. If we dont make the NLCS next year Fredi needs to go. This is/was a world series caliber team. The only reason Minor/Medlen/Teheran are not considered aces is because they dont throw 95+ mph.
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This team was not built for October. They couldn't manufacture runs because it was an all or nothing offense and the pitching suffered due to a lack of experience. The reason people say they aren't aces is because well they aren't. They are good young pitchers with a lot of potential but that's all. This was not a WS caliber team. I guess saying it makes it easier to blame Fredi but it's simply not true. This team probably would have been swept by the Cardinals in the NLCS even if they beat the Dodgers. Cards do the little things to win, this team simply didn't. They relied too much on the 3 run homer.
 
Joe Buck is most likely worse at his job than Fredi is at his job

and that is saying something
 
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CyYoung31 said:
Yeah, they all really showed their "Ace" stuff in the playoffs.

I don't know how many times I have to say it, pitching is what sunk this team's ship.
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Aces do not always pitch great in the playoffs. Kershaw for example has a 4.28 playoff ERA. The Red Sox just won the world series with their lowest ERA being 3.52.

ChapelHillMatt said:
This team was not built for October. They couldn't manufacture runs because it was an all or nothing offense and the pitching suffered due to a lack of experience. The reason people say they aren't aces is because well they aren't. They are good young pitchers with a lot of potential but that's all. This was not a WS caliber team. I guess saying it makes it easier to blame Fredi but it's simply not true. This team probably would have been swept by the Cardinals in the NLCS even if they beat the Dodgers. Cards do the little things to win, this team simply didn't. They relied too much on the 3 run homer.
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Most people's definition of aces is about 4-6 pitchers in the game. If we made it to game 5 with the Dodgers we would have had Minor vs Greinke at home which we won the first time around. Thats despite the bad pitching and lack of offense. Its also asinine to say the Cards would have swept the Braves. Sweeps are hard to do, there wasnt even one sweep these playoffs but the Braves are so much worse than the Cardinals that we would have been swept? Hell we swept them during the regular season at one point right after someone else's asinine statement that the Cards would sweep us because they were so much better.
 
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