Gonzalez or Wren; who's your goat?

ChapelHillMatt said:
This team was not built for October. They couldn't manufacture runs because it was an all or nothing offense and the pitching suffered due to a lack of experience. The reason people say they aren't aces is because well they aren't. They are good young pitchers with a lot of potential but that's all. This was not a WS caliber team. I guess saying it makes it easier to blame Fredi but it's simply not true. This team probably would have been swept by the Cardinals in the NLCS even if they beat the Dodgers. Cards do the little things to win, this team simply didn't. They relied too much on the 3 run homer.
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Of course it was built for October. But Ramiro and EOF failed to make it that far. Even Pastor would have made a difference.
 
rico43 said:
Of course it was built for October. But Ramiro and EOF failed to make it that far. Even Pastor would have made a difference.
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This offense wasn't built for October and neither was the pitching staff (although we did have the bullpen to win it). You need a team that can manufacture runs and a starting pitcher who can shut down the opponent to give you a leg up on your opponent. Look at what Lester did for Boston. This team wasn't built around Ramiro and Pastornicky. We put $30 million into BJ Upton and Dan Uggla. It was a poorly built roster. They did a great job doing as well as they did. We have nothing to be ashamed of, it was a great season.
 
FG is a good regular season manager, who manages by the book, but in the playoffs, you do not manage by the book and this is where he fails.

Also, a team through much of the 90's and early 00's have had 2 to 3 Aces each year and won 1 WS, so aces do not get you that guarantee win, just ask the Red Sox, just ask the Dodgers, one had no aces while the other had 2. So please throw out, you must have aces if you want to win in the post season, it is bunk. It helps but doesn't guarantee you a damn thing.
 
cajunrevenge said:
Aces do not always pitch great in the playoffs. Kershaw for example has a 4.28 playoff ERA. The Red Sox just won the world series with their lowest ERA being 3.52.

Most people's definition of aces is about 4-6 pitchers in the game. If we made it to game 5 with the Dodgers we would have had Minor vs Greinke at home which we won the first time around. Thats despite the bad pitching and lack of offense. Its also asinine to say the Cards would have swept the Braves. Sweeps are hard to do, there wasnt even one sweep these playoffs but the Braves are so much worse than the Cardinals that we would have been swept? Hell we swept them during the regular season at one point right after someone else's asinine statement that the Cards would sweep us because they were so much better.
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Even if they didn't sweep us do you actually think we would have beaten them in a best of 7 series? REALLY?

How well did Minor, Medlen, and Teheran pitch in the playoffs? Don't you think we would have had a better shot if we had a David Price or Max Scherzer at the top of our rotation. Obviously it doesn't guarantee you of a championship but that's the one missing ingredient our rotation is missing.
 
I've always been a bit suspicious of Wren's logic and his decisions. He's done a number of things right, but he's laid some jumbo-sized eggs as well.
 
ChapelHillMatt said:
Even if they didn't sweep us do you actually think we would have beaten them in a best of 7 series? REALLY?

How well did Minor, Medlen, and Teheran pitch in the playoffs? Don't you think we would have had a better shot if we had a David Price or Max Scherzer at the top of our rotation. Obviously it doesn't guarantee you of a championship but that's the one missing ingredient our rotation is missing.
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There is no magical missing ingredient. Basically a trade for Price would involve trading the future for the present. Like the Teixeira and JD Drew trades. The details matter. Some future for present trades are not bad (see Bourn trade).
 
I'm just going to assume the thread title was supposed to say G.O.A.T., as in greatest of all time. In which case, Fredi.
 
ChapelHillMatt said:
With all the injuries we had and two of our highest paid players underperforming how can you consider a 96 win season a failure? People are spoiled rotten. We weren't even supposed to win the division this year. I'd say we overachieved if anything. Fredi and Wren both did a good job putting together a championship caliber club. Fans will never be satisfied.
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World Series rings satisfy. Heck winning a playoff series would suffice right now.
 
ChapelHillMatt said:
Even if they didn't sweep us do you actually think we would have beaten them in a best of 7 series? REALLY?

How well did Minor, Medlen, and Teheran pitch in the playoffs? Don't you think we would have had a better shot if we had a David Price or Max Scherzer at the top of our rotation. Obviously it doesn't guarantee you of a championship but that's the one missing ingredient our rotation is missing.
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I think adding any good player to this team would give us a better shot. I just dont want another JD Drew or Teixeira trade.

Minor pitched pretty well. You cant assume from 1 bad playoff start that Medlen and Teheran will forever suck any playoff game. Pitchers dont forget how to pitch once they are in a playoff game. If 100 year old Freddy Garcia can pitch well in the playoffs then so can Medlen and Teheran.
 
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