Grade the front office this offseason.

[thethe]

It isn't a full rebuild because of Miller and Markakis. Instead of Miller we should have gotten prospects rather than osmoene approaching FA by the time we're good (I fully expect Miller to be traded off though so it kind of negates my point) and Markakis just doesn't plain make sense. We could have used his money and signed someone to a 1 year deal instead and had more money for future spending. Say like Rasmus and Stephen Drew. IF they're good we can spin them to another team, if they suck we have their money to play with next year.

Miller was a former top 10 prospecct that the Braves felt they could buy low on. I thought it made a hell of a lot of sense.

What are you expecting to get for a 1 year player...even one as valueable as Heyward?

 

[thethe]

You don't get a "thanks" because you fail at linking.

 

[zitothebrave]

Miller was a former top 10 prospecct that the Braves felt they could buy low on. I thought it made a hell of a lot of sense.

What are you expecting to get for a 1 year player...even one as valueable as Heyward?

Would have been nice to get the Cardinals top prospect. Or even 2nd best prospect. Not one who probably doesn't crack their top 5 and a pitcher who'll be expensive before we're good if he pans out. Would have rather have taken say Reyes and Kaminsky.

 

[Dalyn]

You don't get a "thanks" because you fail at linking.

Yeah? Working fine on my end. Going to "fix" it.

 

[50PoundHead]

I think we had one of the best offseasons in MLB, and certainly one of the most impactful. To me, the best way to look at it is: 1.) did we have the right strategy, and 2.) how well did we implement the strategy. Here goes . . .

Strategy: B+

I love the decision to rebuild / reload at the MLB level versus going for it. I also loved the decision to revamp the scouting and player development departments. I am luke-warm on the new organizational philosophies of acquiring much more pitching than positional talent, and the extreme focus on contact skills. While both areas were of some concern in the prior regime, it feels like we're over-correcting.

Implementation: B-

The Good: Happy w/ returns for Heyward, Gattis, Kimbrel. Liked almost all of the "smaller" trades. We kept our risk exposure low on FA signings and made good use of minor-league deals.

The Bad: 4-year deal for Markakis is out of step with our strategy in several ways. I think Justin's market was misplayed a bit. Vizcaino and Callaspo transactions seemed reasonable at the time, but don't look so good in hindsight.

The Ugly: Really nothing. We've seen ugly before over the years, and there's nothing we did this year that I would put in that category.

Overall: B

This is just about where I'm at. I thought Hart and company got a bit too fidgety early in the process. I still wonder what would have happened if we had done both trades with San Diego as one blockbuster in early December before making any other changes. Of course, you can't do that, so why wonder. I just think it would have changed the thought process enough that maybe Heyward could have been signed to a long-term deal with the salary savings from unloading Melvin and Kimbrel. I didn't like the Markakis signing one way or the other. Kind of wonder about the Toscano signing as well. I don't have a problem with Callaspo as a player, but I think you're right that a little patience would have been in order to see what other options would be available. I somehow wish they would have dumped Chris Johnson as long as they were moving everyone else along.

I'm optimistic moving forward. It's going to take a few years and when trying to predict the development arcs of prospects can be tricky, but there's no question we've got a ton of projectable pitching and that's a good foundation from which we can move forward.

Wren's 3-for-1s, 4-for-1s, and 5-for-2s left us light in tradeable pieces and with little budget, that means everything has to go right for that approach to worki. We were going to hit a wall at some point. I think a case can be made that we should have gone for it in 2015 and make moves at the deadline in one direction or the other depending on where we were in terms of performance, but I still think there were too many innings to replace for us to qualify as true contenders.

 

[Russ2dollas]

They didn't feel like they could sign Justin or Jason? We have beat this horse dead as it is. It's a lame excuse if you ask me. We should trade Freeman too. Since we aren't going to even try to compete for at least two years why waste Freeman's mid 20s age season on a bad team? That's why Kimbrel was traded. Half of Freeman's extension is going to be wasted on a bad team. The second half of the contract is going to be downhill and his best years will be behind him.

They think we're going to be good next year and in the playoffs the next year. You can say it's crazy, but that is what they say. So no reason to trade FF.

I don't care what Jason says. The Braves knew what the numbers were for JUp and Heyward to give up Free agency and they decided not to pay them. Of course they knew. Everyone on this board was talking about a Heyward and/or JUp extension so you know the agents floated numbers worth coming to the table for...and the Braves said no.

CK was traded b/c he allowed us to get a pitcher we coveted, a lottery ticket position prospect, and get rid of BJ (contract plus roster spot). He only pitches one inning if we are winning. We won't be winning much so there is no point in him. FF will play almost every day.

 

[thethe]

Would have been nice to get the Cardinals top prospect. Or even 2nd best prospect. Not one who probably doesn't crack their top 5 and a pitcher who'll be expensive before we're good if he pans out. Would have rather have taken say Reyes and Kaminsky.

Braves can easily play musical chairs with Miller if he performs well and seriously how many pitchers re-find themselves in atlanta?

What 1 year player fetches a top prospect nowadays?

 

[Dalyn]

I think you all are just haters.

 

[thethe]

What about the re-vamping of the scouting department? That has to be into the grade for the offseason. Clark being back in the fold is a huge plus for the organization.

 

[Braves1976]

It is way too early to say for sure how we did overall and individually with most of these moves. Plus we made a lot and there are likely more to come, this rebuild is not done or even close to done.

Further, I will mention the Justin Upton trade as an example of a trade that reportedly we mishandled but could turn into one of our best. And it might not be due to the big name in the deal (Fried), it could be due to lesser names like Peterson and/or Smith, maybe even the second Peterson (who btw has already been moved from 3B to OF). While the Gattis trade contrary to popular opinion on here is looking like it could turn into one of our worst deals. However, that could certainly change but if so I'd expect it to be more due to Ruiz than Folty the headliner of the deal. I'd also argue that Folty would be best used as a trade piece for offense while his value is still high. Folty looks more like a bullpen arm even if he improves. So I'd hope he starts off well in AAA this year and then trade him if you can get a solid offer.

 

[Russ2dollas]

That's the catch.

Looking at available free agent position players. Throwing out 1B because we have a franchise one, there's not muhc out there, 2B has Howie Kendrick, Ben Zobrist, and maybe Utley if he's non-tendered. Kendrick could play 3B, Zobrist could play 3B or RF. SS features no one but maybe Desmond who would be interesting to move to 3B. 3B has Aramis who's old as ****. C has Wieters who isn't a super star. I'd sign him to something similar that we gave Markakis but on 3 years. OF has Jason, Justin, SPan, Fowler, and Austin Jackson. So we could potentially get our long term CF there. Or we have the option of adding a 2B and moving Peraza to CF. Either way I think we make a move for someone to play CF. And I think we bring in someone to play LF or RF. Our LF prospects just plain dont' exist. Toscano is our best prospect, but I would rather view him as a Markakis replacement.

I honestly don't see anyone I want to spend 20 million a year on. That includes Heyward and JUp. I'd take Desmond or ZObrist if we could move CJ but it would depend on years. No thanks of 30+ year old catchers.

 

[zitothebrave]

Braves can easily play musical chairs with Miller if he performs well and seriously how many pitchers re-find themselves in atlanta?

What 1 year player fetches a top prospect nowadays?

Well let's put it this way, the Phillies traded Rollins who's like half the player Heyward is to the Dodgers and got back a B/B- prospect and a C+/B- prospect (Sickel's ranking) which means one better than Jenkins and one worse than Jenkins. If Rollins gets that how is the entire difference between Rollins and Heyward+Walden the difference between Miller and Eflin?

Rays traded Zobrist and Escobar and got back Robertson, Powell, and John Jaso. Powell is worse than Jenkins, Jaso is basically a throw in as a backup C but a very good one, but Robertson is a really nice MIF prospect.

You're right that 1 year and deadline deals don't have the same impact they used to when you got draft pick compensation, but we could have gotten more for Heyward.

 

[Russ2dollas]

Trading JUp and CK to the Pads and not getting Hunter Renfroe hurts.....but the difference between Renfroe and Wisler may be taking BJ's money.

To get back to the original topic....we just didn't get a Renfore like guy.....not one.

 

[zitothebrave]

What about the re-vamping of the scouting department? That has to be into the grade for the offseason. Clark being back in the fold is a huge plus for the organization.

Cause Clark did so well in 08 and 09. Remove the Nationals getting the luckiest seasons to have back to back losing seasons, and he doesn't look as amazing there either. Also didn't hurt that the Nationals routinely went over slot.

 

[Russ2dollas]

Braves can easily play musical chairs with Miller if he performs well and seriously how many pitchers re-find themselves in atlanta?

What 1 year player fetches a top prospect nowadays?

Am I missing something? Miller isn't a FA until 2019, right? I know he'll get arb and be more expensive, but 2019 is a ways away. They could flip him, extend him, or ride him out until 2019.

 

[gilesfan]

Hart said yesterday they looked at all options and if they decided to try and win this year they were going to have to add 3 significant starting pitchers. They didn't feel like they were going to be able to sign Justin or Jason. Sounded like if they went for it they were going to have to spend a lot of money on starting pitching and they just didn't feel like that was the smart thing to do long term. Those saying that you can't do things halfway, you either try to win or go all in on the rebuild. Tell me how this isn't a full rebuild? We've traded most everyone that we can and got rid of most all the bad contracts. Uggla's contract comes off the books after this year so that's another positive. I see no reason not to be excited about this organization going forward. Unless of course you just like to make yourself miserable or don't understand what it's like to go through the rebuilding process.

JT/Wood/Minor/Cahill/random 5th starter donk plus Kimbrel and a lineup of:

La Stella

Justin Upton

Freeman

Gattis

Heyward

CJ/Callaspo

Simmons

Melvin/Young

would win a heck of a lot of games.

 

[zitothebrave]

And that's the rub. We would have had a good but not amazing team. But we would have liekly have been in the playoffs as a Wild Card and all you need is a ticket to the dance, you never know what can happen next.

 

[thethe]

JT/Wood/Minor/Cahill/random 5th starter donk plus Kimbrel and a lineup of:

La Stella
Justin Upton
Freeman
Gattis
Heyward
CJ/Callaspo
Simmons
Melvin/Young

would win a heck of a lot of games.

And after this year the organization would have issues.

 

[nsacpi]

Broadly there are two ways of grading moves by a front office.

Ex post. Which looks at the outcomes (performances of players involved).

Ex ante. Which looks at expected outcomes at the time the trades were made.

Obviously it will be years before the ex post results are available.

Ex ante, I suppose we all have our individual expectations. There are plenty of posters around here who have given their individual expectations as the moves have been made over the post season. It would be good to have a thread where a summary of those expectations were available in one place.

 

[thethe]

Cause Clark did so well in 08 and 09. Remove the Nationals getting the luckiest seasons to have back to back losing seasons, and he doesn't look as amazing there either. Also didn't hurt that the Nationals routinely went over slot.

Sure, now we are going to doubt the man that played a key role in the braves being a top 10 farm system for over a decade.