Hector Olivera Arrested

http://m.braves.mlb.com/news/article/173265282/hector-olivera-has-leave-extended-two-weeks

"Regardless of the severity of the discipline, Olivera's future with the Braves appears to be in doubt. Team officials have spent the past week discussing the options they have in regard to the outfielder, who has disappointed both on and off the field since being acquired by Atlanta in the three-team, 13-player trade that sent former Braves top prospect Jose Peraza and Alex Wood to the Dodgers before last year's non-waiver Trade Deadline."

I think he's done as a Brave. He honestly might be done as a major leaguer.
 
striker42 said:
http://m.braves.mlb.com/news/article/173265282/hector-olivera-has-leave-extended-two-weeks

"Regardless of the severity of the discipline, Olivera's future with the Braves appears to be in doubt. Team officials have spent the past week discussing the options they have in regard to the outfielder, who has disappointed both on and off the field since being acquired by Atlanta in the three-team, 13-player trade that sent former Braves top prospect Jose Peraza and Alex Wood to the Dodgers before last year's non-waiver Trade Deadline."

I think he's done as a Brave. He honestly might be done as a major leaguer.
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hoping he can be traded for something.. a couple of bats..maybe a new rosin bag..
 
nsacpi said:
Given Olivera's extended absence, it will be interesting to see what the Braves do in left once Inciarte comes back. Options include:

1) Mallex Smith (with Francoeur/Stubbs getting some time against lefties)

2) Moving Adonis Garcia to left, which in turn would open up time at third for KJ and Beckham.

3) Mostly playing Peterson in left (with Francoeur/Stubbs getting some time against lefties). The PT at second would be shared by KJ & Beckham.

4) Mostly playing KJ in left (with Francoeur/Stubbs getting some PT agasint lefties).

I get the impression that the team wants Garcia to settle in at third. But if he continues to struggle defensively, I would like to see option 2, with Mallex going back to AAA.

I also get the impression that the team likes Peterson's outfield defense. So I would guess that option 3 is most likely.
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The obvious move to me is to put Markakis in left and Inciarte in RF. Mallex has looked pretty good in CF thus far. I say keep hitting him 8th and let him continue to figure out how to hit major league pitching. But at worst I think that would give us the best OF defense when Markakis starts.
 
weso1 said:
The obvious move to me is to put Markakis in left and Inciarte in RF. Mallex has looked pretty good in CF thus far. I say keep hitting him 8th and let him continue to figure out how to hit major league pitching. But at worst I think that would give us the best OF defense when Markakis starts.
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Inciarte is one of the better CFs in the league so I think you gotta leave him there.
 
striker42 said:
http://m.braves.mlb.com/news/article/173265282/hector-olivera-has-leave-extended-two-weeks

"Regardless of the severity of the discipline, Olivera's future with the Braves appears to be in doubt. Team officials have spent the past week discussing the options they have in regard to the outfielder, who has disappointed both on and off the field since being acquired by Atlanta in the three-team, 13-player trade that sent former Braves top prospect Jose Peraza and Alex Wood to the Dodgers before last year's non-waiver Trade Deadline."

I think he's done as a Brave. He honestly might be done as a major leaguer.
Click to expand...

yuck
 
I just hope the scout that gave this clown such a glowing report is sent to scout the Outer Mongolian Winter League. I don't think any part of our take on him was right.
 
bravesfanMatt said:
I agree, however he has the best arm so he fits RF the best too.. I think defensively Mallex in CF, Nick LF, Ender RF makes the most sense.. but I know exactly what you are saying. I really waiver on this.
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I agree outside of the waivering part. Markakis has shown that he can't cover RF at Turner Field. So you put your arm and natural OF defender out there in RF covering that deep RCF fence. You put the weaker arm in CF. Mallex in RF can't make the throw to third. If you don't have a guy like Mallex in CF then yes you put Inciarte in CF.
 
I want Inciarte in CF because that's the most important position defensively and he's best at it. I get the thoughts on him being in RF because of his arm, but to me, that's kind of like putting Simmons at 3B and someone else at SS who is pretty good defensively and has a weaker arm. Don't think too much about it, just put your best CF in CF and then figure out the rest.
 
I don't like Olivera's transgression, but I don't like the way we handled him even more. He's an infielder and I think he's a good hitter. He's not a power hitter and as long as they put him in LF he was going to disappoint.

If he played 3B so badly that they couldn't tolerate him more than a few weeks there, then that is a pretty serious scouting deficiency and somebody besides Olivera should be sanctioned. But I don't think he did. You need more than a few weeks to get acclimated. You got 32m reasons to give him every opportunity to play third.

Backing up a step, I don't know if Alex Wood is going to the Hall of Fame or the bullpen but that should have been determined in Atlanta.

Even without the arrest, this whole trade and the treatment of Olivera afterward and the cost of the deal and the near-immediate discard after pushing a pile of chips on him makes me wonder in an elemental way whether Coppalella and Hart have any idea what they're doing. More troubling is that I think I know the answer to my question.
 
GovClintonTyree said:
I don't like Olivera's transgression, but I don't like the way we handled him even more. He's an infielder and I think he's a good hitter. He's not a power hitter and as long as they put him in LF he was going to disappoint.

If he played 3B so badly that they couldn't tolerate him more than a few weeks there, then that is a pretty serious scouting deficiency and somebody besides Olivera should be sanctioned. But I don't think he did. You need more than a few weeks to get acclimated. You got 32m reasons to give him every opportunity to play third.

Backing up a step, I don't know if Alex Wood is going to the Hall of Fame or the bullpen but that should have been determined in Atlanta.

Even without the arrest, this whole trade and the treatment of Olivera afterward and the cost of the deal and the near-immediate discard after pushing a pile of chips on him makes me wonder in an elemental way whether Coppalella and Hart have any idea what they're doing. More troubling is that I think I know the answer to my question.
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I think what happened was we had scouts watch a lot of video of him in Cuba before his showcase. What they saw was a Hector Olivera in his mid-20s. His bat was lightning fast, he had some pop, and he had good speed. When they went to the showcase they fell victim to confirmation bias. Instead of trying to be critical and try to look past the good impression the carefully scripted showcase was trying to establish, they went looking for things to confirm the impression they got from watching him in his days with the Cuban national team.

The problem is that he wasn't the same guy. The player at the showcase was pushing 30, had struggled with injuries, and hadn't played in a couple years. Hart and Coppy trusted the reports too much and fell head over heels for the guy. The fact that the Dodgers were wanting to trade a guy they just gave that big of a contract to and were willing to pay so much on the contract should have been a huge red flag. They had gotten an up close look at Olivera and I don't think they liked what they saw.

So we trade for him and the Johns promise us Olivera is going to be terrific hitter who posts a high average with 15+ HRs and who will nail down third base for years. Then they get an up close look at the real Olivera and realize he's in no way capable of playing third and that his swing is so flawed that he wont hit in the majors. So in a move that smelled of desperation as they tried to salvage an unpopular trade, they move him to left and have Seitzer try to overhaul his swing in the winter league.

When you have a guy you targeted as a major part of the rebuild (and this guy was supposed to be a major part of the rebuild) and after a month you have to move him from the position you had him pegged for and have to try to overhaul his swing, you've made a mistake.

I don't question the Johns at a fundamental level. This was a scouting blunder. It happens. However I don't give them a free pass either. This guy had MAJOR red flags which they ignored and just bulled ahead. They relied on scouting reports that were so flawed you have to wonder why they trusted the guys that wrote them in the first place. The fact that this team went so hard after Olivera on two occasions shows there is an organizational issue that needs addressing. Hopefully they're handling it.
 
I was fine with pursuing Olivera as an international FA until the dollars got ridiculous. I wouldn't have wanted him for what the Dodgers paid, or for what the Braves paid the Dodgers in terms of talent. Too much risk for an old guy with a history of injuries and no track record. It was a perplexing series of moves, really.

"And I think John accurately portrayed the Olivera deal. There’s a bit of an unknown, but I think with the eyes that we had on – Roy Clark, Gordon Blakeley, Fredi (Gonzalez) saw him – we had multiple, multiple looks at the guy, and knowing the market, that if this guy hits like he’s hit before and is the player that our guys have said that he is, then we’ve ended up making a nice deal.

We ended up getting a five-, six-hole type hitter that we’re going to control affordably, and we can add other pieces. That’s the risk that you take, because there’s a level of unknown with the Cuban players that are out there."

—John Hart
 
Julio3000 said:
I was fine with pursuing Olivera as an international FA until the dollars got ridiculous. I wouldn't have wanted him for what the Dodgers paid, or for what the Braves paid the Dodgers in terms of talent. Too much risk for an old guy with a history of injuries and no track record. It was a perplexing series of moves, really.

"And I think John accurately portrayed the Olivera deal. There’s a bit of an unknown, but I think with the eyes that we had on – Roy Clark, Gordon Blakeley, Fredi (Gonzalez) saw him – we had multiple, multiple looks at the guy, and knowing the market, that if this guy hits like he’s hit before and is the player that our guys have said that he is, then we’ve ended up making a nice deal.

We ended up getting a five-, six-hole type hitter that we’re going to control affordably, and we can add other pieces. That’s the risk that you take, because there’s a level of unknown with the Cuban players that are out there."

—John Hart
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Nice quote. It shows that they fell in love with Olivera from his days with the national team. I just don't get why they ignored the fact that he had gone through injuries, hadn't played in a couple years, and was exiting his prime as a player. How is it that no one at any point said "Hey, let's slow down here. That guy wraps his bat pretty bad, has a long swing, and probably doesn't have the bat speed he needs to compensate for it anymore"?

The front office was dead wrong on Olivera. Put the legal issues aside, Olivera isn't very good at baseball anymore. And it's not like this has to be a huge surprise. The risks associated with Olivera are proving to be real issues.
 
Julio3000 said:
I was fine with pursuing Olivera as an international FA until the dollars got ridiculous. I wouldn't have wanted him for what the Dodgers paid, or for what the Braves paid the Dodgers in terms of talent. Too much risk for an old guy with a history of injuries and no track record. It was a perplexing series of moves, really.

"And I think John accurately portrayed the Olivera deal. There’s a bit of an unknown, but I think with the eyes that we had on – Roy Clark, Gordon Blakeley, Fredi (Gonzalez) saw him – we had multiple, multiple looks at the guy, and knowing the market, that if this guy hits like he’s hit before and is the player that our guys have said that he is, then we’ve ended up making a nice deal.

We ended up getting a five-, six-hole type hitter that we’re going to control affordably, and we can add other pieces. That’s the risk that you take, because there’s a level of unknown with the Cuban players that are out there."

—John Hart
Click to expand...

Just shows how stupid it put blind faith in that group just because they had success before. Nobody is above criticism.
 
striker42 said:
I think what happened was we had scouts watch a lot of video of him in Cuba before his showcase. What they saw was a Hector Olivera in his mid-20s. His bat was lightning fast, he had some pop, and he had good speed. When they went to the showcase they fell victim to confirmation bias. Instead of trying to be critical and try to look past the good impression the carefully scripted showcase was trying to establish, they went looking for things to confirm the impression they got from watching him in his days with the Cuban national team.

The problem is that he wasn't the same guy. The player at the showcase was pushing 30, had struggled with injuries, and hadn't played in a couple years. Hart and Coppy trusted the reports too much and fell head over heels for the guy. The fact that the Dodgers were wanting to trade a guy they just gave that big of a contract to and were willing to pay so much on the contract should have been a huge red flag. They had gotten an up close look at Olivera and I don't think they liked what they saw.

So we trade for him and the Johns promise us Olivera is going to be terrific hitter who posts a high average with 15+ HRs and who will nail down third base for years. Then they get an up close look at the real Olivera and realize he's in no way capable of playing third and that his swing is so flawed that he wont hit in the majors. So in a move that smelled of desperation as they tried to salvage an unpopular trade, they move him to left and have Seitzer try to overhaul his swing in the winter league.

When you have a guy you targeted as a major part of the rebuild (and this guy was supposed to be a major part of the rebuild) and after a month you have to move him from the position you had him pegged for and have to try to overhaul his swing, you've made a mistake.

I don't question the Johns at a fundamental level. This was a scouting blunder. It happens. However I don't give them a free pass either. This guy had MAJOR red flags which they ignored and just bulled ahead. They relied on scouting reports that were so flawed you have to wonder why they trusted the guys that wrote them in the first place. The fact that this team went so hard after Olivera on two occasions shows there is an organizational issue that needs addressing. Hopefully they're handling it.
Click to expand...

Interesting thoughts, very plausible.

I think the phrase you're looking for is institutional arrogance. Passed from John to John to John. They're really resting on stuff that they did 20 years ago. Schuerholz' last five years were decidedly mediocre, Hart took Texas nowhere and Coppalella has never done a thing. They don't have a whole lot of recent success collectively to hang their hat on.

The one saving grace, the one thing that I think trumps all their very significant flaws is that they did a really good job with volume. They've brought in so many guys, some of them will hit and some of them will pitch. But I'm not satisfied that our baseball management or scouting are superior. They seem kinda average. Lots of big misses.
 
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