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thethe

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Staff member
Yes, you are not seeing things. I have made my return after a year + hiatus. In the spirit of a Trump victory I'd like to re-engage in my divisive posibrave rhetoric. So, for the boards consumption, I think a little back and forth this offseason would be enjoyable. Let's discuss the following:

  1. Are there still negabraves out there that do not like what the front office has acheived?
  2. Would anyone have done it differently now in hindsight?
  3. Do you all still disagree about the philosphy to draft lots of pitching?
  4. Is the Markakis move still a bad move?
  5. Did the offseason of weight lifting help Markakis (Like I repeated on numerous occasions)?
  6. Was Heyward worth an extension?
  7. Are we all happy that the Johns are in power?

Now of course more questions can be raised but I think it would be fun to get the juices flowing while the 2017 title team is assembled this offseason.
 
Is weak contact the secret formula for making the Braves great again?

If so, should we be looking to bring back Pedro Ciriaco?
 
Baseball was better in the 80s

I preferred the 70s. Rowland Office, Larvell Blanks, Biff Pocoroba, Mike Lum. Those were the days. When the Braves were specialists in very weak contact.

So yeah or nay to more Pedro Ciriaco?
 
Yes, you are not seeing things. I have made my return after a year + hiatus. In the spirit of a Trump victory I'd like to re-engage in my divisive posibrave rhetoric. So, for the boards consumption, I think a little back and forth this offseason would be enjoyable. Let's discuss the following:

  1. Are there still negabraves out there that do not like what the front office has acheived?
  2. Would anyone have done it differently now in hindsight?
  3. Do you all still disagree about the philosphy to draft lots of pitching?
  4. Is the Markakis move still a bad move?
  5. Did the offseason of weight lifting help Markakis (Like I repeated on numerous occasions)?
  6. Was Heyward worth an extension?
  7. Are we all happy that the Johns are in power?

Now of course more questions can be raised but I think it would be fun to get the juices flowing while the 2017 title team is assembled this offseason.

2) You still have to admit they fumbled a bunch of the trades a few years ago, looked for quantity over quality, and didn't maximize trade value when dumping the likes of Kimbrel, Upton, Gattis, etc. In hindsight, the Kimbrel trade was especially troubling because of what the Padres got for him. We would have been better off holding onto BJ instead of dragging down Kimbrel's trade value at that point. We really lucked out with the Heyward trade though. However, it's looking like most of the pieces we acquired in those other trades are going to turn into nothing special. Still a bit concerning that we haven't been able to develop any of the pitching we acquired in these trades, although it's still very early.
 
2) You still have to admit they fumbled a bunch of the trades a few years ago, looked for quantity over quality, and didn't maximize trade value when dumping the likes of Kimbrel, Upton, Gattis, etc. In hindsight, the Kimbrel trade was especially troubling because of what the Padres got for him. We would have been better off holding onto BJ instead of dragging down Kimbrel's trade value at that point. We really lucked out with the Heyward trade though. However, it's looking like most of the pieces we acquired in those other trades are going to turn into nothing special. Still a bit concerning that we haven't been able to develop any of the pitching we acquired in these trades, although it's still very early.

The brass agree with you. This is the main reason that McDowell was terminated.

Pertaining to the Padres' trades, dumping the Upton contract was such a priority that Kimbrel was the price. But with Grilli, then Johnson, I think it's fair to say that Kimbrel's loss had minimal impact on the last couple of seasons.
 
I do believe we have built up enough depth to pull off one blockbuster, say, for Verlander.

I have always been a fan of the Markakis trade. His consistency has so far eclipsed what Heyward has done that I can live with any gap in the defense.

The one trade I have had issues with from the beginning was Simmons. But even that has worked out OK.
 
I do believe we have built up enough depth to pull off one blockbuster, say, for Verlander.

I have always been a fan of the Markakis trade. His consistency has so far eclipsed what Heyward has done that I can live with any gap in the defense.

The one trade I have had issues with from the beginning was Simmons. But even that has worked out OK.

I have no doubts that we could pull off a Verlander trade, but I would be highly upset if we did. I think the price would be way too high, and if you're going to cash in your chips, there are far better options.
 
2) You still have to admit they fumbled a bunch of the trades a few years ago, looked for quantity over quality, and didn't maximize trade value when dumping the likes of Kimbrel, Upton, Gattis, etc. In hindsight, the Kimbrel trade was especially troubling because of what the Padres got for him. We would have been better off holding onto BJ instead of dragging down Kimbrel's trade value at that point. We really lucked out with the Heyward trade though. However, it's looking like most of the pieces we acquired in those other trades are going to turn into nothing special. Still a bit concerning that we haven't been able to develop any of the pitching we acquired in these trades, although it's still very early.

I think it's too early to say that. Fried could still develop into a TOR pitcher and Mallex could end up a starting CFer. That would be great quality. Throw in Jace at his current production and that's a great trade for JUp.

For the Gattis trades I still have a lot of hope for Folty.
 
Yes, you are not seeing things. I have made my return after a year + hiatus. In the spirit of a Trump victory I'd like to re-engage in my divisive posibrave rhetoric. So, for the boards consumption, I think a little back and forth this offseason would be enjoyable. Let's discuss the following:

  1. Are there still negabraves out there that do not like what the front office has acheived?
  2. Would anyone have done it differently now in hindsight?
  3. Do you all still disagree about the philosphy to draft lots of pitching?
  4. Is the Markakis move still a bad move?
  5. Did the offseason of weight lifting help Markakis (Like I repeated on numerous occasions)?
  6. Was Heyward worth an extension?
  7. Are we all happy that the Johns are in power?

Now of course more questions can be raised but I think it would be fun to get the juices flowing while the 2017 title team is assembled this offseason.

1) Not addressed to me, as I've been on board with the rebuild efforts from the beginning.

2) Undoubtedly I would have done some things differently. I think we tried to straddle the line between rebuilding and competing a little too much and it led to some wasteful decisions such as giving up premium assets for Olivera, wasting money on Markakis and not moving trade chips such as Grilli, Johnson and Teheran in the interest of competing. As happy as I am with the rebuild and the course we're on, I can't help but wonder if we could have been players for some of the young Cuban players if we hadn't tossed aside so much payroll on Markakis or Olivera. I also wish we could have found a way to be just two games worse than we ended up being, but I am not blaming anybody for that.

3) Nope. We got great value from our drafts, and even though I'd like to see some more bats in the system, you have to take the value.

4) Absolutely. I never thought the Markakis deal was a bad one because of the player. I was surprised by the lack of power in 2015, but was absolutely against the signing even before that. I'm happy to see that he showed some life at the end of the year, because maybe it means we can correct the original mistake by dealing him for something of value to our future.

5) Sure, but again I don't think it really matters when it comes to my evaluation of the Markakis signing, beyond making it both terrible from a value and fit standpoint to only terrible from a fit standpoint.

6) Depressingly no. I really hope he turns it around next year with the bat, because I still love me some Jason Heyward. But if Heyward put up this kind of year on that contract for us, we'd be pissed.

7) Definitely. I think there have been some hiccups along the way, but we are largely on the right track. We've done pretty much everything a rebuilding club is supposed to do, and the scouting department has shown itself to be very impressive.
 
I do believe we have built up enough depth to pull off one blockbuster, say, for Verlander.

I have always been a fan of the Markakis trade. His consistency has so far eclipsed what Heyward has done that I can live with any gap in the defense.

The one trade I have had issues with from the beginning was Simmons. But even that has worked out OK.

I believe we're a catcher and a 1-2 away from being in contention. Thus, my interest in such a deal is strong. My strong preference would be for Chris Archer.
 
Yes, you are not seeing things. I have made my return after a year + hiatus. In the spirit of a Trump victory I'd like to re-engage in my divisive posibrave rhetoric. So, for the boards consumption, I think a little back and forth this offseason would be enjoyable. Let's discuss the following:

  1. Are there still negabraves out there that do not like what the front office has acheived?
  2. Would anyone have done it differently now in hindsight?
  3. Do you all still disagree about the philosphy to draft lots of pitching?
  4. Is the Markakis move still a bad move?
  5. Did the offseason of weight lifting help Markakis (Like I repeated on numerous occasions)?
  6. Was Heyward worth an extension?
  7. Are we all happy that the Johns are in power?

Now of course more questions can be raised but I think it would be fun to get the juices flowing while the 2017 title team is assembled this offseason.

1.Im cautiously optimistic.
2. sell more, no markakis, tank more, trade more pieces. AJ a year ago for instance.
3. Wait and see
4.Yes.
5.no
6.Wait and see
7.Dislike Hart and Shuerholtz, like Coppy more.
 
2) You still have to admit they fumbled a bunch of the trades a few years ago, looked for quantity over quality, and didn't maximize trade value when dumping the likes of Kimbrel, Upton, Gattis, etc. In hindsight, the Kimbrel trade was especially troubling because of what the Padres got for him. We would have been better off holding onto BJ instead of dragging down Kimbrel's trade value at that point. We really lucked out with the Heyward trade though. However, it's looking like most of the pieces we acquired in those other trades are going to turn into nothing special. Still a bit concerning that we haven't been able to develop any of the pitching we acquired in these trades, although it's still very early.

Completely disagree. We got great value on all trades. Gattis was a limited player that netted us a quality pitcher with TOR potential in Folty. 1 year of Upton trade got us Mallex, Fried, Jace, and Dustin Peterson. Mallex and Jace are already proving valuable MLB assets and Fried picked up right where he left off before the injury. Dustin Peterson HS stock was risen immensely since the trade as well.

The least amount of value we got was from the Kimbrell trade. But even that trade netted us Wisler, 1 good year of Maybin (who was flipped for Krol), a draft pick that turned into Austin Riley, and it opened up money to make other moves like the Touki trade.

I don't see how anyone can look at those trades as "fumbles."
 
Yes, you are not seeing things. I have made my return after a year + hiatus. In the spirit of a Trump victory I'd like to re-engage in my divisive posibrave rhetoric. So, for the boards consumption, I think a little back and forth this offseason would be enjoyable. Let's discuss the following:

  1. Are there still negabraves out there that do not like what the front office has acheived?
  2. Would anyone have done it differently now in hindsight?
  3. Do you all still disagree about the philosphy to draft lots of pitching?
  4. Is the Markakis move still a bad move?
  5. Did the offseason of weight lifting help Markakis (Like I repeated on numerous occasions)?
  6. Was Heyward worth an extension?
  7. Are we all happy that the Johns are in power?

Now of course more questions can be raised but I think it would be fun to get the juices flowing while the 2017 title team is assembled this offseason.

1. As a confirmed realistbrave, I think the front office actions have been just "ok." No one should ever be expected to bat 1.0, but there have been some unforced errors (the bizarre Olivera infatuation) and some missed opportunities. I think they find themselves constrained somewhat by the timing of the new stadium. They have to at least build the illusion of a competitive team going into Suntrust, which is likely to lead to a less efficient and good rebuild than if they just worried about the rebuild and not fan and investor perceptions.

2. All kinds of things. The Olivera trade never made any sense.

The Markakis signing was a useless and costly move when viewed from the POV that a rebuild was coming. His upside was extremely limited and his downside was risky. They are actually very lucky that he has played as well as he has.

Bringing up Swanson was short sighted and risky -it worked out from a performance stand point but long term he will cost more at some point and his unnecessary presence on the 40 man adds one more limit on the ability of a rebuilding team to hoard and stash talent. Even if the 40 man advantage only went through ST 2017 with Swanson starting opening day 2017, it would have still allowed the Braves to keep a "flyer" like Jed Bradley through 2017 allowing one more offseason and ST to see if he has any future value.

Firing Fredi was dumb. They still had to pay him anyway. It was a lost season. An improved record was actually harmful in a lost season. The brought in a guy in Snitker to throw him an interim bone and ended up hiring him because of a half season of .500 ball when it was pretty clear that they weren't thinking that way to start with.

Not trading certain assets now in an effort to be mediocre sooner is a misuse of value.

I could go on.

3. I have always thought you take the best talent available. In 2016 the Braves played games because they wanted to maximize their pool money. If one of the three first round guys turns into an ACE or even a good #2, then it probably was a good move. If they all are no better than long term middle relievers, then the strategy probably fails. At some point, the Braves must find some offense. Pointing to Maitan ignores the fact that he is 17 and 4-6 years away from the ML in all likelihood. Overall, I think the draft strategy has been fine, but we won't really know for several years.

4. See above. Of course it was a bad move. Horrible in the big scheme of things. He doesn't belong on a rebuilding team. He belongs as a #7 or #8 hitter on a contending team as he winds down his career. He's way below what you want out of a RF. He was coming off major injury. He wasn't cheap. His upside was limited. His trade value is limited.

5. Not really. He played marginally better but still didn't return to his admittedly pedestrian best RF numbers. His defense regressed. He's not a complete waste anymore which is good.

6. Of course not. He's being paid big money for defense and base running. There's a LOT of minor league CF out there who could provide an approximate equivalent as Heyward in RF for major league minimum but never sniff the ML because they can't hit a lick. Heyward is really paid the big money because he's a big guy who looks like he has the potential to be a star and has shown flashes of competence with the bat. Then when he doesn't produce, teams and fans justify his salary by pointing to his base running and defense. They never seem to contemplate that the same base running and defense could be supplied by any number of players who never get a shot in the bigs because they can't hit and never look like they will.

7. Somewhat. I still think Coppy has a LOT to learn. But, in fairness to him, he's being played as a land mine finder by Hart - if something bad happens its Coppys job to fall on his sword, if it's good then Hart shows up to make sure that everyone knows that he's still around and the power behind the thrown (without overtly saying so). I think there is an institutional stubbornness that can be good but has it's drawbacks as well. I think there is a certain amount of incestuous management going on where like Blazing Saddles, the Governor wants a harrumph out of everybody.
 
[*]Are there still negabraves out there that do not like what the front office has acheived?

It involved some pain. Personally tired of reading about "holding on to Kimbrel" when the overwhelming sentiment at this forum was to get rid of BJ at any cost. Keeping a closer, especially one of that magnitude would have done plenty to run down his value. What is there to save on a 100-loss team? Yeah, he's somebody they would have wanted to keep, but the "value" of great closers is vastly overrated. Plus, they would've been still saddled with BJ, who would not have ever turned his career around in ATL. Told you that (if completely healthy) Jordan Walden could have been closer. Ditto with Vizcaino, but he was another trendy "trade him" designated board whipping boy for a while.

At any rate, they did what needed to be done to be rid of the bad contracts. It involved some difficult decisions by removing some good players, but it was understood what direction this was taking. Who knows what offers were rejected/discussed that didn't materialize? At least they're on the road to recovery.

Retaining Snitker doesn't impress me as it does with the majority here. All he demonstrated was ability to rectifiy the dismissal of Fredi and bring the club to near .500 level. Not experienced enough at MLB managing to give indication that he could direct them toward serious contender status. So, the one year guaranteed contract was a way to appease the players (and some fans) with Ron Washington parked at 3rd if they are to have somebody ready to kick it up a notch if Snit can't.

[*]Would anyone have done it differently now in hindsight?

That would require evaulation of every single move that was made and more time that it would take to reply here. So pass on that one. Off the top of my head, of course there would be re-do's. Bringing in the likes of Grilli, Johnson are warm bodies, nothing more. The recent 40+ ex Mets contingent to round out the rotation doesn't instill a huge amount of confidence. Either is possible to implode and not certain of either's role as mentor (esp. Colon) to the younger starters either, but we shall see.

[*]Do you all still disagree about the philosphy to draft lots of pitching?

It was me who told everybody that they were following the same philosophy as during the mid 80's. Nobody listened. Once again, here's why. During the decline, while still chest thumping about the division titles, the organization lost its reputation as a pitching factory. This was for a variety of reasons, not least of which was position in draft order to select/develop another future potential staff ace.

We cannot underestimate the influence of Bobby Cox. he is still apparently retained in a consulting capacity, is a HOFer, and obviously very respected for his opinion. He was in charge during the previous build. Despite some mishandlings with other GM's, it was largely successful. Simply it was just acquire as many young arms as possible and develop them. Some will round out the rotation and BP, while others became assets to trade to address other needs.

[*]Is the Markakis move still a bad move?

It was never bad, per se, but it seemed questionable at the time. They talk about not wanting to trade any of the starting OF's. If the right offer was made for Markasis, why wouldn't you do it?

Many times throughout the last 25+ years, they've discussed need for team speed. Back then, they had it with Otis Nixon and Neon Deion. Despite changes in the game since that time, it still matters to wreak havoc on the basepaths by distracting the pitcher, moving the lead runner to 2nd to place in him scoring position and getting that run on the board early in the game. It sets a tone. They have some guys on the roster and the system capable of making that happen. With more power, team speed adds a useful dimension to the offense. Markasis clearly can't help with that, while 2 other current active OFers can.

[*]Did the offseason of weight lifting help Markakis (Like I repeated on numerous occasions)?

In most cases, it would help anybody. Not to be too self-serving, but all players should be on a yoga regiment too. It'd reduce risk of injury and recovery time off the DL.

[*]Was Heyward worth an extension?

Just stopped laughing after realizing that this was serious question. Heyward was the least important component on a WS-winning team but with an eye-popping contract. How much more proof is needed that he's not the Special Player that he was promoted as since before he first came up? We don't need to get into the contributing factors (i.e. snake bitten after injuries, etc.). The point is that any player with that salary should be expected to help carry a team. In Chicago he doesn't have to, and in Atlanta he never unequivocally demonstrated that ability.

Shelby Miller alone was worth that trade. Then look at the gift that keeps on giving since Miller got flipped.

[*]Are we all happy that the Johns are in power?

As he gains more experience, Coppy will gain more leverage to make his own decisions without having to check back with senior level staff. If they're better than .500 in 2017, it will surprise me but certainly in a happy way. However, there haven't been any obvious signs that the rebuild could have been accelerated, as there were during the late 80's.
 
The brass agree with you. This is the main reason that McDowell was terminated.

Pertaining to the Padres' trades, dumping the Upton contract was such a priority that Kimbrel was the price. But with Grilli, then Johnson, I think it's fair to say that Kimbrel's loss had minimal impact on the last couple of seasons.

I think you misunderstood my point about Kimbrel. I was saying we could have acquired a lot more from the Padres, along the lines of what they got from the Red Sox, had we not tied BJ's contact to him. I'm not saying holding onto Kimbrel meant anything to us.
 
Completely disagree. We got great value on all trades. Gattis was a limited player that netted us a quality pitcher with TOR potential in Folty. 1 year of Upton trade got us Mallex, Fried, Jace, and Dustin Peterson. Mallex and Jace are already proving valuable MLB assets and Fried picked up right where he left off before the injury. Dustin Peterson HS stock was risen immensely since the trade as well.

The least amount of value we got was from the Kimbrell trade. But even that trade netted us Wisler, 1 good year of Maybin (who was flipped for Krol), a draft pick that turned into Austin Riley, and it opened up money to make other moves like the Touki trade.

I don't see how anyone can look at those trades as "fumbles."

The issue is that none of Folty, Fried, Jace, Mallex or Dustin Peterson are elite players or really close to it. Sure they might turn out to be good parts of our next contending team, but really my point is we went quantity instead of aiming for one big prize in each trade. Disclaimer, I fully understand the farm system needed a lot of help, but that still doesn't change my perspective.
 
1. Overall I would say they have done a fine job with aquisitions, other than Olivera, which I never ever understood, and even Coppy has admitted it was a bone head move

2. See above. I thought we traded Grilli just a bit too soon this past season, might have gotten more if we had waited a couple weeks or so.

3. Drafting pitching is fine as long as you do not ignore the position players, which we did not with the likes of Riley and some of the international signings

4. I do not know what if any influence he might have in the clubhouse, but as far as the money spent for the position I thought it was unnecessary and stick by that

5. Do not know, really do not care :)

6. Heyward was never going to be worth the money, he has not been the same since he was hit in the head by Mets pitcher

7. If not the Johns it would be someone, so far the plan seems to be looking good going ahead. When you have as many first round picks in your system as they do now it has to look brighter than it did with the depleted farm system left by Wren
 
Wow, this has been a tremendous response thus far. I've always found is fascinating how different fans can view the same situation so differently.

I will take some time to respond to my own questions but I just wanted to see where the community stands on these important questions now that we are coming up on year 3 of this drastic rebuild.

Thank you all for taking the time to share your thoughts. I'm looking forward to the 2017 year.
 
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