HRC
- Thread starter 57Brave
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50PoundHead
Hessmania Forever
Absolutely. I've studied my share of theology and take these matters seriously and I've come to the cornball conclusion that anyone on the firmament who either puts themselves in Heaven or someone else in Hell is assuming a role to which they are not fit.
Julio3000
<B>A Chip Off the Old Rock</B>
I'm going to say pics or it didn't happen. There needs to be an indictment. A "clear inference" leaves too much to interpretation.
Well, my comments here have been predicated on the FN article about the FBI leaks, specifically in reference to the statement that indictments are expected in the Clinton Foudation investigation. As for the State Department emails, I don't think it's impossible that there will be some kind of cause found to charge someone. That said, I'll take the bet because I doubt anything is forthcoming in the next month. As for the Epstein thing...dude. I'll include it because I think there's a larger point to be proven here.
I guess I'm not clear exactly what your position on this is. I don't think there's any specific, official coordination between DJT and the Russians or Wikileaks. I do think that the release of the hacked emails to WikiLeaks is a Russian influence operation. That's not really tinfoil hat stuff, in that both candidates have been briefed to that effect by our intelligence agencies. Do you disagree with that?
Sounds good to me.
BedellBrave
It's OVER 5,000!
1 Corinthians 6:9-11English Standard Version (ESV)
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
BedellBrave
It's OVER 5,000!
Matthew 5:21-26English Standard Version (ESV)
Anger
21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire. 23 So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison. 26 Truly, I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.
BedellBrave
It's OVER 5,000!
Matthew 11:20-24English Standard Version (ESV)
Woe to Unrepentant Cities
20 Then he began to denounce the cities where most of his mighty works had been done, because they did not repent. 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you.”
BedellBrave
It's OVER 5,000!
Matthew 25:31-46English Standard Version (ESV)
The Final Judgment
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
50PoundHead
Hessmania Forever
Bedell, in all three of your posts, that's the direct Word of God and not some tinpot in a pulpit. And reading your posts, I'm reminded of the Curtis Mayfield song, "If There's a Hell Below, We're All Going to Go." But where I think you fall short is that in Romans Paul points out that all fail short before the law and that only through Christ we are redeemed. You seem to be veering into the third interpretation of the Law in your posts and I think that undermines the sovereignty of God. Further, it's important to remember that Matthew is often called the "Jewish" Gospel because it is the most influenced by accepted Jewish law of that era.
BedellBrave
It's OVER 5,000!
I don't fall short. You just used a sweeping universal - and thus the quotes. And of course I believe we all fall short and that salvation is by grace alone. I am a Calvinist remember. The problem I have with your take is that you seem to shy away from ever saying that unrepentant sin is hell worthy.
And the thing about Matthew's Jewish context isn't particularly relevant. Imo.
Btw, being Reformed, I do hold to the 3 uses of the law (I'm not an antinomian). And a Calvinist isn't usually one to undermine the Sovereignty of God.
Oklahomahawk
Boras' Client
Not to butt into other people's conversation but my main point (and I thought it was fitty's too though I am/was not totally sure) was that from the pulpit congregations hear:
Word of God, truth and vital to both salvation and living a life pleasing go God
Word of God, truth and vital to both salvation and living a life pleasing go God
Word of God, truth and vital to both salvation and living a life pleasing go God
Word of God, truth and vital to both salvation and living a life pleasing go God
Introduction of political propaganda thinly disguised to look like "what God wants"
Word of God, truth and vital to both salvation and living a life pleasing go God
Word of God, truth and vital to both salvation and living a life pleasing go God
Word of God, truth and vital to both salvation and living a life pleasing go God
Word of God, truth and vital to both salvation and living a life pleasing go God
Vote Republican or you'll go to hell you filthy commie bastard wannbes
Word of God, truth and vital to both salvation and living a life pleasing go God
Word of God, truth and vital to both salvation and living a life pleasing go God
Word of God, truth and vital to both salvation and living a life pleasing go God
Word of God, truth and vital to both salvation and living a life pleasing go God
Word of God, truth and vital to both salvation and living a life pleasing go God
Word of God, truth and vital to both salvation and living a life pleasing go God
Word of God, truth and vital to both salvation and living a life pleasing go God
Introduction of political propaganda thinly disguised to look like "what God wants"
Word of God, truth and vital to both salvation and living a life pleasing go God
Word of God, truth and vital to both salvation and living a life pleasing go God
Word of God, truth and vital to both salvation and living a life pleasing go God
Word of God, truth and vital to both salvation and living a life pleasing go God
Vote Republican or you'll go to hell you filthy commie bastard wannbes
Word of God, truth and vital to both salvation and living a life pleasing go God
Word of God, truth and vital to both salvation and living a life pleasing go God
Word of God, truth and vital to both salvation and living a life pleasing go God
50PoundHead
Hessmania Forever
That's not what I'm saying at all. Of course all need to repent. Maybe Hillary has and maybe Donald has. We don't know that. The only repentance that matters is the one before God; not what is said in the newspapers. And of course Matthew's Jewish context is relevant. As a Lutheran, I don't hold to the 3 uses of the law. Works without faith are simply works and I believe when one veers into the third use of the law, it increasingly becomes more about the person and less about God. I do agree with Zwingli on the sacraments, however.
Bottom line, we don't know what's in Hillary's heart, or Trump's heart, or Rubio's heart, or Ted Cruz' heart. I suppose we can all go to the "fruits of the spirit" verses of Galatians, but all I'm seeing is rotten fruit in our current political culture.
OkHawk, to be clear, I am with you completely.
You mean the 17 intelligence agencies that Clinton referred to in the final debate? A list the includes the Department of Energy and the Coast Guard? James Clapper, DNI, made that announcement and, while his office oversees the other intelligence agencies, we shouldn't necessarily construe that to mean all the agencies conducted their own investigations or even that they agree.
I do disagree with the assertion that Wikileaks received 'hacked' e-mails from Russia. Entirely. I would be happy to change my position if there was ANY evidence produced to support that claim whatsoever.
BedellBrave
It's OVER 5,000!
And of course I'm not saying that I know what's in the heart nor what his/her final destiny will be. I am saying though that out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks and by their fruits you shall know them and if you remain steadfast and unrepentant and don't seek forgiveness in Christ then what the Scriptures say of your eternal destiny is true.
And no it isn't relevant. We don't chunk the Sermon on the Mount or any place where there are imperatives applied to us (either 1, 2, or 3 use of the law) because they reflect a Jewish context.
Nothing wrong with the third use of the law - we are after all called to holiness. We ought to desire to express gratitude for the salvation that is our's in Christ and the law shows us what that holiness ought to look like. If we don't, then chunk all the imperatives of Scripture. Imperatives don't precede indicatives, but they aren't null and void. Also, seeking to express gratitude for salvation via pursuing holiness in light of the law of God is only possible by grace. No need to be afraid of sanctification. It's by grace too. As Bach would write, Soli Deo Gloria!
Btw, if you forced me to choose between Luther and Zwingli on the sacraments, I'd go all Lutheran. But I'm glad those aren't the only two options.
BedellBrave
It's OVER 5,000!
To use your normal practice - both sides do that sort of junk and I wasn't condoning the practice that you linked too. I was objecting to what seems to me to be this idea that to say that practices "x, y, and z" are damnable, is wrong. And the notion that to warn against such is to somehow claim to know another person's heart or their final state. That's a non sequitur.
50PoundHead
Hessmania Forever
We're just not going to agree on this one and I respect your position though I disagree with it. But "ought" is the key word. Our lives should be reflections of our faith, but our sinful nature compromises us every time we breathe and if we try to mask that nature with public, yet insincere, works, the works are nothing more than wormwood.
As for the sacraments, Luther just can't seem to fully shake off his Catholic training. God can be wherever he wants to be, thus, if he wants to be present in outward signs like Baptism and the Eucharist, he clearly can be. For me (and I'm only talking about me here), the Eucharist is just another reminder of how I have not fully lived up to the terms of my Baptism.
PS--I agree that both sides of the political spectrum (and a lot of points in-between) use religion inappropriately to further their ends.
50PoundHead
Hessmania Forever
Both sides have gifts that keep on giving. In the internet age, every major party candidate better have paid off those unpaid parking tickets they rang up in college.
Oklahomahawk
Boras' Client
I"m really not sure why we're going off on this particular tangent, of course I object to any group that claims to be representatives of/for my God campaigning for any candidate from as far back as I can remember. And I have heard so much "we have to vote for a candidate who's going to get as many people on the Supreme Court as possible so that they will one day reverse Roe v. Wade. That's just IMO at its root bad people using Christian folk who are gullible enough to believe these people. I realize that I don't have any proof that the Repubs absolutely don't care about repealing Roe v. Wade, that it's a much better campaigning tool as it now stands as getting rid of it would ever be but no matter what I say people are still gonna believe the slick talking types who associate that party with morality and use the vain hope of stopping abortions as the reason to give them and their people "just a few more years" to make it happen and then pay no attention to all the stuff they do manage to do during those years, just like Bush/Cheney 2000-2008.
As for both sides "doing it" I do believe that's true in many cases but surely you don't think that "campaigning from the pulpit" is anywhere near 50/50 on the Repub/Dem front do you?
cajunrevenge
Well-known member
I am only disgusted they didn't include Republicans. Both sides support violence and sexual violence against people who have committed victimless crimes. Over 100k women will be sexually assaulted for the crime of possessing pot during the next presidential term. Calling them immoral is sugar coating it in my opinion.
Oklahomahawk
Boras' Client
By the way, just to make sure I'm clear on this, since I"ve already opened the can of worms, I am not concerned with the church poisoning the state, IMO both of these parties are way beyond that in their own ways. My only concern is that the state poisons the church and non-believers see the stuff that goes on in the name of the Lord and it drives them away from him, instead of towards him.