Insane package for Chapman

Southcack77 said:
I mean according to the last list I saw the worst trade in Braves history was a Texeira trade where none of the pieces traded actually were missed in the MLB lineup (though Feliz certainly could have been a nice set up man to Wagner/Kimbrell).

Some people cannot stand losing perceived opportunity cost. They always want to give up nothing to get something.

Now, I think you should not cash chips in until you are close, but I'm willing to trade away players to try and win the whole thing. that's the point.
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The point of trades is to get value for the assets you have, not to trade them because they are blocked. The Braves had Chuck James, Buddy Carlyle, and Kyle Davies in the rotation (Reyes too) and decided it was a good idea to deplete the farm for a bat.

As for you point on the players, they certainly could have used Feliz and Harrison. I was always in favor of moving Salty or McCann to first base, which could have allowed them to focus resources on adding an actual arm since they were delutional enough to think they had a chance at competing that year.
 
50PoundHead said:
I hate to wade in, but the thing I find a bit funny is up until this year, Teixeira was by far the best player in the deal (excepting the years in which Teixeira was injured). Tex was truly a great hitter.
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Which also speaks to how stupid the deal was. Look at how well he performed and it meant nothing because we needed a heck of a lot more than that.
 
Tapate50 said:
Well, usually its us that trades a bunch of stuff that never works out to the other team so Im not getting all worked up over one or two trades (JD Drew trade involving Wainwright, although Drew was VERY good) that we gave up some useful pieces for....
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The Drew trade at least made sense. There are times to go for it and times where you accept the risk that the prospects you give up may be good.
 
gilesfan said:
Which also speaks to how stupid the deal was. Look at how well he performed and it meant nothing because we needed a heck of a lot more than that.
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I'm not defending the trade. I'm just saying Teixeira is an extremely good player who was the single best player in the deal by far. The package the Braves gave up for him was ridiculous. If it had been Andrus or Saltalamacchia/Harrison or Feliz/and Jones, it would have been defensible. All five was nuts.
 
nsacpi said:
But WAR doesn't claim that. It has Andrus' best season rated below six of Teixeira's.

I would say it is useful to have a way of comparing a slick fielding SS with a .720 OPS and over 30 steals with a first baseman with a .880 OPS. I don't think it is crazy on an intuitive basis to say two players of this sort are close in value.
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I was speaking of the longitudinal comparison given by a poster above.
 
You have prospects not only to call up and build a foundation but to be able to make trades like this.

Torres was an international signee. They'll just go out and get another to replace him. There are always prospects. If you do a good job scouting, signing, drafting, there is a never ending flow of prospects.

108 years. I can't blame the Cubs.
 
gilesfan said:
The Drew trade at least made sense. There are times to go for it and times where you accept the risk that the prospects you give up may be good.
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It would have made sense if the team didn't have a perfectly good RF it could have signed to avoid the necessity of making that trade. The Yankees got him for 3 years/ $39 million. The Braves would have been much better off paying Sheffield that amount and keeping Adam Wainwright around.
 
DirkPiggler said:
It would have made sense if the team didn't have a perfectly good RF it could have signed to avoid the necessity of making that trade. The Yankees got him for 3 years/ $39 million. The Braves would have been much better off paying Sheffield that amount and keeping Adam Wainwright around.
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I don't remember the Braves having the money to sign Sheffield.
 
gilesfan said:
I don't remember the Braves having the money to sign Sheffield.
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It's a bit foggy, but I think the Braves went 3/$36 MM with Sheffield and he was almost ready to ink the deal before Steinbrenner became involved personally on the Yankees' side. I've always agreed with those who contend that not re-signing Sheffield was a blunder.

Drew/Wainwright was clearly a now-for-later and contending teams make those. What made the move more questionable in retrospect was Schuerholz' stance on impending free agents and not offering arbitration. Only one he offered was Maddux and that was pretty much out of desperation.
 
clvclv said:
I understand the skepticism many have, but I'll remain in the camp that believes the brass when they say the Braves will be a Top 10 payroll team in the near future. If they prove that's not going to be the case, I'm sure my opinion may change.

That said, I still agree with those who feel that the haul we gave up for Teixeira was (for the most part) excess. Very good players, but excess at the time nevertheless. Could those players have been used in other trades for other pieces? Maybe. The thing is, that (along with the belief that other uncontrollable things - Wagner signing/loss of draft pick, etc.) hindsight has always been better than 20-20 and lots of us look like "geniuses" years later (myself certainly included). They made the deal with every intention of re-signing Tex as Chipper's "protection" until he retired. If that had happened and the Braves got that second Title, I dare say NO ONE would have complained. It didn't work out. Even with that being the case, I'm glad JS took a shot - parades are worth more than prospects to just about everyone I know. I'd imagine Cubs fans feel the same way today.
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It's doubtful that trade was made with every intention of resigning Tex. They knew the market and they knew what their payroll environment was. It's been nearly 10 years and Freeman is the only player we've ever signed to a 100+ million dollar deal.
 
The worst part about the Drew/Wainwright trade was that Drew was made of glass at the time... it was an enormous risk to trade for him.

Now, it worked out, as he put up an MVP season... but that also kinda burned us bc then we weren't able to afford him
 
50PoundHead said:
I'm not anti-stats per se, but this is why I get a bit frustrated with the whole WAR war. There's no planet in the galaxy where Andrus is even remotely as valuable as Teixeira (unless everyone on the planet only speaks Spanish).
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I disagree. While Tex has been very good overall as a Yankee, 2009 is really the only season that he was great. Add to that, he's missed a lot of games the last few years. Even as someone who is skeptical of WAR, I would definitely say their overall value over the time span is similar.
 
gilesfan said:
I don't remember the Braves having the money to sign Sheffield.
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It's easy to say this with hindsight, but not signing Sheffield cost the Braves a hell of a lot more than what it would have taken to resign him.

If, as 50PoundHead says, the difference came down to $1million per year, then not signing Shef goes from stupid to inexcusable. Schuerholz, McGuirk, and the TimeWarnerAOL dildos who were siphoning money off the franchise could have come up with that much out of their own salaries and never missed it.
 
DirkPiggler said:
It's easy to say this with hindsight, but not signing Sheffield cost the Braves a hell of a lot more than what it would have taken to resign him.

If, as 50PoundHead says, the difference came down to $1million per year, then not signing Shef goes from stupid to inexcusable. Schuerholz, McGuirk, and the TimeWarnerAOL dildos who were siphoning money off the franchise could have come up with that much out of their own salaries and never missed it.
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From what I remember, not only could the Braves not afford Sheff, but he wanted to go to either Tampa or NY. He essentially came out and said he wasn't going to take discount to stay with Braves, which typically means see ya.
 
50PoundHead said:
I'm not anti-stats per se, but this is why I get a bit frustrated with the whole WAR war. There's no planet in the galaxy where Andrus is even remotely as valuable as Teixeira (unless everyone on the planet only speaks Spanish).
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As nsacpi said, WAR has never said Andrus is as valuable as Tex in his best seasons. Tex blows him away in his best seasons, but you are ignoring the fact Tex hasn't been as consistent as you think he has since he became a Yankee. Pre 2010 Tex was one of the most valuable players in baseball, from 2010 on Tex has been in a bit of a steady decline (and from 2009-2013 was pretty much Andrus's peak value), which is why they are close in WAR since 2010. On top of that defense and position matter a fair bit in terms of value, and Tex has been a pretty poor defender at 1B since signing with the Yanks, while Andrus has been a plus defender at SS.
 
clvclv said:
The thing is, that (along with the belief that other uncontrollable things - Wagner signing/loss of draft pick, etc.) hindsight has always been better than 20-20 and lots of us look like "geniuses" years later (myself certainly included). They made the deal with every intention of re-signing Tex as Chipper's "protection" until he retired. If that had happened and the Braves got that second Title, I dare say NO ONE would have complained.
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Yeah, the thing is that it's not hindsight is 20/20 when we are talking about the Tex, Drew, or Wagner signings, people were overwhelmingly not happy at the time about those moves. We aren't talking about a Hot nudism thread here, where we were jumping around giddy about the trade. People were pissed we traded Wainwright at the time, and ridiculously upset about the Tex trade. The only people fine with those trades back then were posters like yourself that pretty much support anything the Braves do no matter what. The majority were not in favor of those moves at the time, and history has proven them right.

And we never had the payroll to sign Drew or Tex, which is a large portion of the reason people were upset at the time with the moves. We knew we had zero chance to resign them. Perhaps this is hindsight is 20/20 for you, but it isn't for most us.
 
auyushu said:
As nsacpi said, WAR has never said Andrus is as valuable as Tex in his best seasons. Tex blows him away in his best seasons, but you are ignoring the fact Tex hasn't been as consistent as you think he has since he became a Yankee. Pre 2010 Tex was one of the most valuable players in baseball, from 2010 on Tex has been in a bit of a steady decline (and from 2009-2013 was pretty much Andrus's peak value), which is why they are close in WAR since 2010. On top of that defense and position matter a fair bit in terms of value, and Tex has been a pretty poor defender at 1B since signing with the Yanks, while Andrus has been a plus defender at SS.
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If you line up all the GMs in baseball and ask if they would have rather had Andrus or Teixeira over the past half-decade, I doubt even the most stat-driven would opt for Andrus. Even in his subpar years, Teixeira was a proven middle-of-the-order bat.
 
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