Insane package for Chapman

nsacpi said:
Would this include consideration of salary?
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Past 6 years between the two:

Tex 3225 PA- .239/.335/.462; 12.9 WAR
Andrus 4457 PA- .272/.333/.49 16.6 WAR

Actually, I disagree 50. Not simply because of WAR, but Tex has really been crap the last 6 years. (injuries part of it) You would be much better off with Andrus and a league average 1B than Tex and a league average SS.
 
50PoundHead said:
If you line up all the GMs in baseball and ask if they would have rather had Andrus or Teixeira over the past half-decade, I doubt even the most stat-driven would opt for Andrus. Even in his subpar years, Teixeira was a proven middle-of-the-order bat.
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Tex hasn't played over 125 games since 2011, and hasn't had a batting average over .260 since 2009. In 2014 he managed a whopping .216/.313/.398 slash line after missing the entire 2013 season pretty much. I doubt most GMs would even have wanted Tex at his given salary over the past 4 years or so. I think you are just letting your memories of Tex as a player overwhelm the reality of his performance over the past 5 years or so man, he has declined a lot.
 
auyushu said:
Yeah, the thing is that it's not hindsight is 20/20 when we are talking about the Tex, Drew, or Wagner signings, people were overwhelmingly not happy at the time about those moves. We aren't talking about a Hot nudism thread here, where we were jumping around giddy about the trade. People were pissed we traded Wainwright at the time, and ridiculously upset about the Tex trade. The only people fine with those trades back then were posters like yourself that pretty much support anything the Braves do no matter what. The majority were not in favor of those moves at the time, and history has proven them right.

And we never had the payroll to sign Drew or Tex, which is a large portion of the reason people were upset at the time with the moves. We knew we had zero chance to resign them. Perhaps this is hindsight is 20/20 for you, but it isn't for most us.
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I'm not going to get dragged into "defending" or "condemning" the trade beyond saying I liked it at the time. I, like many other fans, wanted the Braves to win another Championship. Consider yourself someone with a crystal ball all you like.

"Scott Thorman had been playing first regularly before the trade, so Teixeira was an immense upgrade. To acquire Tex and and Ron Mahay, the Braves sent Beau Jones, Elvis Andrus, Neftali Feliz, Matt Harrison and Jarrod Saltalamacchia to the Rangers.

The Braves gave up their top three prospects in the deal – Saltalamacchia, Andrus and Harrison – so Baseball America called it a a "good haul" for GM Jon Daniels.

Saltalamacchia had potential to "blossom into one of the game's best catchers," but he was expendable to the Braves, who had Brian McCann. They could also afford to deal Andrus because of shortstops Edgar Renteria, Brent Lillibridge and Yunel Escobar.

Saltalamacchia had already arrived in the big leagues at the time of the trade, but Andrus was just 18. Baseball America considered him a "classic projection prospect" because no one was sure he would hit enough to become a major league regular. He was still raw, but Daniels said he had to obtain more than draft choices for his first baseman."

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/11/trades-of-the-decade-teixeira-to-the-braves.html

"'The Rangers got a haul," Houston manager Phil Garner said

before Tuesday night's game against the Braves. "But it was a good

deal for both sides.'

"Teixeira was assigned a locker beside Chipper Jones, another

switch-hitter who he said was his favorite player as a high school

third baseman.

"I thought that was the player I want to be," Teixeira said,

adding he wore Jones' No. 10."

http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2954457
 
gilesfan said:
Past 6 years between the two:

Tex 3225 PA- .239/.335/.462; 12.9 WAR
Andrus 4457 PA- .272/.333/.49 16.6 WAR

Actually, I disagree 50. Not simply because of WAR, but Tex has really been crap the last 6 years. (injuries part of it) You would be much better off with Andrus and a league average 1B than Tex and a league average SS.
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auyushu said:
Tex hasn't played over 125 games since 2011, and hasn't had a batting average over .260 since 2009. In 2014 he managed a whopping .216/.313/.398 slash line after missing the entire 2013 season pretty much. I doubt most GMs would even have wanted Tex at his given salary over the past 4 years or so. I think you are just letting your memories of Tex as a player overwhelm the reality of his performance over the past 5 years or so man, he has declined a lot.
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I'm quite sure you both saw that coming on July 31, 2007 - right?
 
clvclv said:
I'm quite sure you both saw that coming on July 31, 2007 - right?
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You really are mister strawman eh? But yeah, I would have predicted him to start to fall off in the 2013-2015 timeframe, most players start to fall off when they hit their middle 30s. It's actually more common that they do than they don't without heavy PED use. That's why 7-8 years deals almost always end badly for teams that give them.

Now that being said, I would have been very happy had we extended Tex to a 4-5 year deal for the same amount he got from the Yankees if we could have afforded it. That would have made the Tex trade a bit more even.

But I don't want to see the Braves give 7-8 year high dollar extensions to any player unless they will be right around 30 (the Freeman extension being ideal from a length standpoint in this regard) when the extension ends. Even HOF players generally start to tail off a bit along with playing far less games once they hit 33 or so, father time gets us all eventually. Not sure why you think it would be something special to predict a falloff for a player who is getting older. That's the main reason people were pretty surprised and iffy about the Uggla extension at the time (even though he collapsed a couple years earlier than any of us saw coming).
 
clvclv said:
I'm quite sure you both saw that coming on July 31, 2007 - right?
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Im not sure what your point is. The haul for Tex was one of the largest we've ever witnessed and it was for 1.5 years of a player to go to a team that wasn't going to win a title and had more pressing needs in the rotation. You didn't have to project one of the prospects to exceed Tex for the deal to not make sense.
 
auyushu said:
Tex hasn't played over 125 games since 2011, and hasn't had a batting average over .260 since 2009. In 2014 he managed a whopping .216/.313/.398 slash line after missing the entire 2013 season pretty much. I doubt most GMs would even have wanted Tex at his given salary over the past 4 years or so. I think you are just letting your memories of Tex as a player overwhelm the reality of his performance over the past 5 years or so man, he has declined a lot.
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Certainly not today, but as recently as three years ago, if you lined up all of the GMs in baseball, they'd likely opt for Teixeira due to upside at the plate. He has declined. Sure he has. But Andrus is a pretty run-of-the-mill SS with one of the worst contracts in baseball.
 
50PoundHead said:
And still, if you lined up all of the GMs in baseball, they'd likely opt for Teixeira due to upside at the plate. He has declined. Sure he has. But Andrus is a pretty run-of-the-mill SS with one of the worst contracts in baseball.
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I'm just talking about performance, no doubt nobody would touch Andrus with a ten foot pole with that contract. But nobody would want Tex's contract from 2013 on either.
 
50PoundHead said:
And still, if you lined up all of the GMs in baseball, they'd likely opt for Teixeira due to upside at the plate. He has declined. Sure he has. But Andrus is a pretty run-of-the-mill SS with one of the worst contracts in baseball.
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I really don't see your point of view on this one. The contract for Andrus really isn't that bad if you go on the 8 mil per WAR type analysis. He's just now entering his prime and is roughly a 1.5-2 WAR player. (assuming defense hasn't regressed and this is just small sample at play). He's an above average defensive SS and an average hitting offensive SS.

Tex, OTOH, is making 50% and missing significant time every year. He's also barely above average hitting for a 1B and poor defensively.

If a GM would rather have Tex than Andrus over the past handful of years, I'd really wonder about them. Andrus is at work a league average SS while Tex is average....when he's been on the field, which is not much.

I would take Andrus at 15 mil per year anyday. As he reaches his prime, he could be a 2-3 WAR player over the next 3-5 years, easily.
 
auyushu said:
Andrus would have been significantly more valuable than Alex Gonzalez in 2010-2011, and leagues better than Janish and Pastornicky in 2012, it's really not even a matter of debate. The stats speak for themselves there.

And by your argument we shouldn't even bother signing free agents this offseason, because even though Prado, Turner, or Freese produce more WAR than Garcia, we won't get any more wins because of it.

The lengths people go through to try and defend Braves moves at all cost never cease to amaze me. Pretty much every neutral site that discusses the Tex move puts it in among the worst deals of the past 30 years, but nah, it wasn't a big deal. :facepalm:
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I hate some Braves trades, but this isn't particularly one of them. It was screwed up more by the surrounding moves than there being anything that off about the trade to me. I personally don't think it is a huge deal that the Braves didn't have those players in the organization.

I do appreciate WAR and think it has its place, but you are asking the wrong person about bothering to sign free agents this year. I figure they might as well not bother probably, but sure sign some guys if you like. I don't think their WAR or projected WAR is likely to be something I spend a ton of time worrying about. Particularly when part of that WAR is defensive WAR, which I find to be lacking.

WAR is a way of looking at things, but it isn't the only way. I do wish sometimes folks who argue from statistics would be a little less definitive about things.
 
gilesfan said:
I really don't see your point of view on this one. The contract for Andrus really isn't that bad if you go on the 8 mil per WAR type analysis. He's just now entering his prime and is roughly a 1.5-2 WAR player. (assuming defense hasn't regressed and this is just small sample at play). He's an above average defensive SS and an average hitting offensive SS.

Tex, OTOH, is making 50% and missing significant time every year. He's also barely above average hitting for a 1B and poor defensively.

If a GM would rather have Tex than Andrus over the past handful of years, I'd really wonder about them. Andrus is at work a league average SS while Tex is average....when he's been on the field, which is not much.

I would take Andrus at 15 mil per year anyday. As he reaches his prime, he could be a 2-3 WAR player over the next 3-5 years, easily.
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By that logic, up until this season, Erick Aybar would have been a bargain. Andrus is being paid until 2023 unless he opts out of his contract.

For the record, I didn't like the Teixeira trade when we made it because I clearly thought we had given up too much, but it was a classic now-for-later deal and the later part of the equation has had its fits and starts. That said, when the trade was made, Teixeira was one of the ten best offensive players in baseball. Has he declined? Sure he has. I guess I've never been that much in love with Andrus.
 
gilesfan said:
Past 6 years between the two:

Tex 3225 PA- .239/.335/.462; 12.9 WAR

Andrus 4457 PA- .272/.333/.49 16.6 WAR

Actually, I disagree 50. Not simply because of WAR, but Tex has really been crap the last 6 years. (injuries part of it) You would be much better off with Andrus and a league average 1B than Tex and a league average SS.
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Now post how much each player is still owed beyond this season and let me know if that influences which player you would rather have right now.

But yes, the Tex deal gutted the farm and was the beginning of the end. I'm not exactly sure what you guys are even arguing about. It seems like some of you post counterpoints just to have a reason to click the post button.
 
Last thing --

I believe a lot of the perception of this trade is colored by the Braves not making the WS and then the Rangers making the WS later with some of these guys contributing.

I believe the trade made the Braves more likely to make the WS and they easily could have done. I think it probably made the Rangers more likely to make the WS, but I don't think it is fair to say that the trade was the backbone of their success. If anything, it added some quality supporting players who were able to complement the players already in Texas.

But giving up Wainwright IMO was a ton more impactful to the Braves organization than giving up Elvis Andrus, Feliz, and Harrison.

Jermaine Dye for Tucker and Lockhart while we are talking about it.
 
50PoundHead said:
By that logic, up until this season, Erick Aybar would have been a bargain. Andrus is being paid until 2023 unless he opts out of his contract.

For the record, I didn't like the Teixeira trade when we made it because I clearly thought we had given up too much, but it was a classic now-for-later deal and the later part of the equation has had its fits and starts. That said, when the trade was made, Teixeira was one of the ten best offensive players in baseball. Has he declined? Sure he has. I guess I've never been that much in love with Andrus.
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Aybar has been a bargain until this year. He was a very good player in 11, 12, and 14 and a decent player in 13. This year....not so much for some reason.

You seem to be overrating Tex's bat a bit. He was borderline one of the 10 best first baseman bats at the time.

From 04 to 07:

Pujols 167 RC+
Berkman 149
Howard 145
Helton 140
Thome 140
Lee 138
Giambi 137
Tex 135
Konerko 128
Delgado 127

That is just 1B and ignores Bonds, Ortiz, Arod, Hafner, ManRam, Chipper, Vlad, Cabrera, Wright, Thomas, Drew who all had better production from different positions.

Tex was a very good hitter from 04-11 and has had a spurt of good hitting in 15.
 
Enscheff said:
Now post how much each player is still owed beyond this season and let me know if that influences which player you would rather have right now.

But yes, the Tex deal gutted the farm and was the beginning of the end. I'm not exactly sure what you guys are even arguing about. It seems like some of you post counterpoints just to have a reason to click the post button.
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We aren't talking about today, we are talking about the past 6-8 years or so. Tex was making 20-22.5 M per year. As of right now; who would pay Tex 22.5 million dollars?

If you don't like the discussion, you can always not click the thread.
 
Southcack77 said:
Last thing --

I believe a lot of the perception of this trade is colored by the Braves not making the WS and then the Rangers making the WS later with some of these guys contributing.

I believe the trade made the Braves more likely to make the WS and they easily could have done. I think it probably made the Rangers more likely to make the WS, but I don't think it is fair to say that the trade was the backbone of their success. If anything, it added some quality supporting players who were able to complement the players already in Texas.

But giving up Wainwright IMO was a ton more impactful to the Braves organization than giving up Elvis Andrus, Feliz, and Harrison.

Jermaine Dye for Tucker and Lockhart while we are talking about it.
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The pitching staff consisted of:

Smoltz 3.11 ERA
Huddy 3.33 ERA
Carlyle 5.37 ERA
James 4.24 ERA
Davies 5.76 ERA

Reyes 6.46 ERA
Cormier 6.85 ERA

The bullpen was pretty bad (~3.5 ERA)

The team had zero shot at contending, much less winning the world series. Can you imagine a game 3 starter of Chuck James and following that up with Buddy Carlyle in game 4?
 
Right now the Rangers are locked in a deal with Andrus they'd kill to get out of.

Feliz couldn't hack it as a starter. If we keep Feliz do we get Wagner? Maybe not

Harrison was a decent starter but injuries have derailed him.

Salty took forever to develop and even then he was a platoon guy

Beau Jones who?

I don't think it's as bad as people make it out to be...and now we have clear 20/20 hindsight. The guys we dealt were replaced too ...so there is a replacement value...where they may otherwise not have been. Now if we could have spun an Andrus salty or Harrison for another good player? Maybe...
 
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