Is it too much to ask?

T

TheBravos

Boras' Client
I know young pitching takes time....I get it. Is it too much to ask that just ONE of the 400 pitchers we have traded for actually separate themselves from the pack? It's looking very likely that we will not have real help until some of the guys we drafted move up. I surely thought we would have two guys by now that you could pencil in as mainstays. At this point they all seem to be taking a step back.
 
Yes, but there are always a few that just "click". I thought by as many as we have (and because some are older), we would have at least one take off. Unless we have a few click (which is possible) or we trade for pitching...we will be lucky to be a .500 team next year. I don't mind that, and I would actually prefer a slower rebuild. I find it funny the front office thinks otherwise though.
 
I think we need to keep an open mind. Folty, Wisler, Gant, Newcomb and Sims all have the potential to be at least
solid major league starters.
 
Looking at the pitchers who are close who also under performed this year in Folty, Wisler, Blair, Newcomb, and Sims I'd bet two to three of them have a great season next year. It's just the way things usually go, which is why we're stockpiling as many arms as we can.
 
It's hard to pin down when things will "click."

Look at Randy Johnson and Curt Schilling.

OTOH, guys like Doc Gooden and Fernando Valenzuela came up and were great right away only to flame out relatively early.

I think Folty, Sims and Newcomb are the three to watch in the upper minors as far as hopes of being special at some point. I think Wisler, Blair, Gant, Whelan and Ellis are all 4-5 guys. We've already seen some injury washouts in ManBan and Perez.

The next wave looks to have some guys who could be high end but have some risk as well with Fried (surgery return), Toussaint (control), Allard (back). Soroka looks like the cleanest bet.

Then you have guys like Jed Bradley who was once a highly thought of guy who washed out with his former club and appears to be thriving with the Braves...
 
Guess I'll have to continue to mention - Glavine and Smoltz have both said MANY times that they don't even begin to look seriously at young Pitchers until they've had 30 MLB starts.

I'm beginning to become concerned with Folty's attitude and body language - it's not as if he hasn't had things happen to him like they did last night at this level plenty of times before. I am beginning to wonder a bit if his head's going to get in the way of his talent.

30 starts is roughly one full season. I believe I'll wait a while before making assumptions about any of these guys.

FWIW, Jim Bowden talked to Coppy on XM yesterday, and Jim Duquette wondered afterward if part of "the plan" might be to use a few of these chips to go after Chris Archer to pair with Julio this winter.
 
clvclv said:
FWIW, Jim Bowden talked to Coppy on XM yesterday, and Jim Duquette wondered afterward if part of "the plan" might be to use a few of these chips to go after Chris Archer to pair with Julio this winter.
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I don't think it's worth anything, but man getting Archer would be a major get. I think he'd kill it here. Has been super durable while also pitching well-to-great. He and Julio at 1 and 2 would be awesome.
 
clvclv said:
Guess I'll have to continue to mention - Glavine and Smoltz have both said MANY times that they don't even begin to look seriously at young Pitchers until they've had 30 MLB starts.

I'm beginning to become concerned with Folty's attitude and body language - it's not as if he hasn't had things happen to him like they did last night at this level plenty of times before. I am beginning to wonder a bit if his head's going to get in the way of his talent.

30 starts is roughly one full season. I believe I'll wait a while before making assumptions about any of these guys.

FWIW, Jim Bowden talked to Coppy on XM yesterday, and Jim Duquette wondered afterward if part of "the plan" might be to use a few of these chips to go after Chris Archer to pair with Julio this winter.
Click to expand...

That'd be terrific as long as we don't trade Albies/Swanson/Allard and we hold on to Folty. So with that, I don't really see how we match up.

Maybe

Wisler/Blair

Jace

Newcombe/Touki/Soroka

Riley/Acuna

Probably still not enough
 
In fact, pretty much the only guys I wouldn't use in a deal for Archer would be Albies, Swanson, and Maitan (I suppose).
 
Mentioned this in the game thread . . . I think Folty may be on the verge of graduating into the 2017 rotation. It's been an inconsistent - and sometimes ugly - journey for him this year, but he's improved.

I took a quick look at fWAR per IP this year for pitchers with at least 80 IP. Folty is 93rd out of 139 MLB SPs. Here are the 5 guys just ahead of him and the 5 guys just behind him . . . Ahead: Doug Fister, Dan Straily, Scott Kazmir, Jeff Samardzija, Bud Norris . . . Behind: Kendall Graveman, Martin Perez, Sean Manaea, Tyler Duffey, Kyle Gibson.
 
Depth is probably not a problem in the starting staff, but you need a guy or 2 to step up and show that they can anchor the rotation. Gant, Folty, Wisler (to a lesser degree) can anchor the bottom 2 spots of the rotation with plenty of other candidates. But, the difficult task is finding a guy that matches up with the best in the game. We don't have it at the moment and it is tough to obtain. I would just be patient for a year and 2 and hope someone steps up. I guess a guy like Archer wouldn't be a terrible addition at age 27, but he's more so really good than great.
 
dak said:
Mentioned this in the game thread . . . I think Folty may be on the verge of graduating into the 2017 rotation. It's been an inconsistent - and sometimes ugly - journey for him this year, but he's improved.

I took a quick look at fWAR per IP this year for pitchers with at least 80 IP. Folty is 93rd out of 139 MLB SPs. Here are the 5 guys just ahead of him and the 5 guys just behind him . . . Ahead: Doug Fister, Dan Straily, Scott Kazmir, Jeff Samardzija, Bud Norris . . . Behind: Kendall Graveman, Martin Perez, Sean Manaea, Tyler Duffey, Kyle Gibson.
Click to expand...

So what you're saying is that he's pitched pretty poorly?

The fact that the "nearly ready" guys like Blair, Jenkins, Newcomb, Wisler, Folty and Sims have all pretty much flopped this season is precisely why the Braves made such a halfhearted effort in improving the OF with Kemp. They got a "name" to sell to the ignorant fans at a fairly low cost, and nothing more. If a few of those pitchers had stepped up and proved that they could anchor an MLB rotation the FO probably doesn't acquire Kemp, and instead shoots for a much more expensive/talented player for the OF.

The Braves will not be good next year with the current pitchers, and it would be foolish to attempt to "rebuild" the rotation when ~75% of the organization's talent assets are tied up in pitching. They will make modest acquisitions at C and 3B, sign an innings eater like Jorge De La Rosa for the rotation, and punt again in 2017. If it's any consolation, they should at least be better than the 105-loss team they are now (it would be nearly impossible to be this bad again).

Hopefully by the 2017/2018 offseason some of the young pitchers will have figured something out and the team can make more of a push to improve for the 2018 season.
 
yeezus said:
Not a single part of my brain would mind trading Folty in a deal for Archer.
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I think you'd have to. He's the only one close who has kept his stock up this year. It wouldn't be smart to trade low on guys like Wisler/Blair/Sims/Newcomb unless you're talking to a team who still sees value and isn't trying to buy low.

Gant, Whalen, Povse, and Weigel all upped their value this year so I could see them in play as well.

I could see Mallex in play if we were trading with Tampa
 
Enscheff said:
So what you're saying is that he's pitched pretty poorly?

The fact that the "nearly ready" guys like Blair, Jenkins, Newcomb, Wisler, Folty and Sims have all pretty much flopped this season is precisely why the Braves made such a halfhearted effort in improving the OF with Kemp. They got a "name" to sell to the ignorant fans at a fairly low cost, and nothing more. If a few of those pitchers had stepped up and proved that they could anchor an MLB rotation the FO probably doesn't acquire Kemp, and instead shoots for a much more expensive/talented player for the OF.

The Braves will not be good next year with the current pitchers, and it would be foolish to attempt to "rebuild" the rotation when ~75% of the organization's talent assets are tied up in pitching. They will make modest acquisitions at C and 3B, sign an innings eater like Jorge De La Rosa for the rotation, and punt again in 2017. If it's any consolation, they should at least be better than the 105-loss team they are now (it would be nearly impossible to be this bad again).

Hopefully by the 2017/2018 offseason some of the young pitchers will have figured something out and the team can make more of a push to improve for the 2018 season.
Click to expand...

I don't know much, but I know we're not punting again.
 
Chico said:
I don't know much, but I know we're not punting again.
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Acquiring Kemp means they have already punted 2017. A team doesn't bring in a 0-1 WAR player with a .300 OBP to hit 4th because they are "going for it". At least competent teams don't.
 
Enscheff said:
Acquiring Kemp means they have already punted 2017. A team doesn't bring in a 0-1 WAR player with a .300 OBP to hit 4th because they are "going for it". At least competent teams don't.
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Ok, so this isn't a rational debate. Never mind
 
Enscheff said:
So what you're saying is that he's pitched pretty poorly?

The fact that the "nearly ready" guys like Blair, Jenkins, Newcomb, Wisler, Folty and Sims have all pretty much flopped this season is precisely why the Braves made such a halfhearted effort in improving the OF with Kemp. They got a "name" to sell to the ignorant fans at a fairly low cost, and nothing more. If a few of those pitchers had stepped up and proved that they could anchor an MLB rotation the FO probably doesn't acquire Kemp, and instead shoots for a much more expensive/talented player for the OF.

The Braves will not be good next year with the current pitchers, and it would be foolish to attempt to "rebuild" the rotation when ~75% of the organization's talent assets are tied up in pitching. They will make modest acquisitions at C and 3B, sign an innings eater like Jorge De La Rosa for the rotation, and punt again in 2017. If it's any consolation, they should at least be better than the 105-loss team they are now (it would be nearly impossible to be this bad again).

Hopefully by the 2017/2018 offseason some of the young pitchers will have figured something out and the team can make more of a push to improve for the 2018 season.
Click to expand...

What I'm implying is that he's currently performing like a back-end MLB SP, while having the upside of something more than that if the stars align. He's also shown year-over-year improvement. Taking all these factors in consideration, I think he's on the path to earning a 2017 spot.

Also, have all the guys you listed flopped? That seems a little harsh, but I guess depends on one's expectations. I think Folty and Newcomb have met expectations. The others have not progressed as well as the organization had hoped.
 
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