Jecki Lon Memorial Star Wars Thread

zitothebrave said:
You're accepting that the tragedy of Darth Plageuis the wise is fact, not a story made up or manipulated by a sith lord attempting to recruit the chosen one.
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That's a super weak argument. If you can't see how it diminishes his character you are blind.
 
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zitothebrave said:
What character? A supposed Sith lord, who Palpatine implied taught him the key to life, but Palpatine never displayed that capability.
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There was very little in canon about Plaguis. IIRC, he wasn't even officially Muun until this week.

The problem they're facing is that they're going up against expanded universe stories about him and his role in creating Anakin. The witch mother creating the twins does diminish that.

It's a trap a lot of feminist storytellers fall into. They want women in their stories to outdo men at what men are previously considered good at. You see it in Rings of Power with Galadriel being a great warrior instead of being a wise, strong leader in her own right. She has to be good at what men do to be valued.

You see it here with the witch mother being more powerful than anyone with the force and supplanting Plaguis as the pioneer of life creation through the force.

I'd rather see a story where the female character distinguishes herself in novel ways. Instead of showing that a female character is only strong if she can do what men do, show the female character doing their own thing and that thing be important or cool.
 
striker42 said:
There was very little in canon about Plaguis. IIRC, he wasn't even officially Muun until this week.

The problem they're facing is that they're going up against expanded universe stories about him and his role in creating Anakin. The witch mother creating the twins does diminish that.

It's a trap a lot of feminist storytellers fall into. They want women in their stories to outdo men at what men are previously considered good at. You see it in Rings of Power with Galadriel being a great warrior instead of being a wise, strong leader in her own right. She has to be good at what men do to be valued.

You see it here with the witch mother being more powerful than anyone with the force and supplanting Plaguis as the pioneer of life creation through the force.

I'd rather see a story where the female character distinguishes herself in novel ways. Instead of showing that a female character is only strong if she can do what men do, show the female character doing their own thing and that thing be important or cool.
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Exactly. We are retconning the most powerful beings in the known Star Wars universe to make an irrelevant Star Wars story far important than it needs to be.

One of the great things about the Mandalorian and Andor (and in partially Ahsoka) is that they tells new stories in existing Star Wars areas that were previously vacant. And they do so without greatly affecting existing Star Wars cannon. The Mandalorian and Andor are also good shows that can stand independent of the Skywalker Saga.

The Acolyte doesn't do either of those things. It isn't a good story independently, and more importantly, it essentially spits in the face of the content that came before it, creating huge issues with established Star Wars cannon in the main Skywalker Saga, of which the entirety of Star Wars is built upon.
 
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striker42 said:
There was very little in canon about Plaguis. IIRC, he wasn't even officially Muun until this week.

The problem they're facing is that they're going up against expanded universe stories about him and his role in creating Anakin. The witch mother creating the twins does diminish that.

It's a trap a lot of feminist storytellers fall into. They want women in their stories to outdo men at what men are previously considered good at. You see it in Rings of Power with Galadriel being a great warrior instead of being a wise, strong leader in her own right. She has to be good at what men do to be valued.

You see it here with the witch mother being more powerful than anyone with the force and supplanting Plaguis as the pioneer of life creation through the force.

I'd rather see a story where the female character distinguishes herself in novel ways. Instead of showing that a female character is only strong if she can do what men do, show the female character doing their own thing and that thing be important or cool.
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We don't know what the story is. How do we know the Plageuis wasn't involved in the creation? I forget the line, I believe it was something like "you don't know what I sacrificed" or something like that. For all we know Plagueis was there and that was a sacrifice and opened them up for discovery. Who knows we don't because we're not told how the twins were made. Only that they're the same person split. Which I mean could mean even that they're not immaculate conception but some other means. I mean who knows.

Galadriel was a great warrior. And she was wise. Those things aren't mutually exclusive in the elves. Rings of Power's issue wasn't it's characterization of Galadriel, it was it's weird dealing with time. And it's weird design choices.

We have no evidence that the witch mother is more powerful than anyone in the force. She did nothing exceptional in the force aside from scale (it took more witches to possess Kelnacca) and we again don't know hwo the twins were created. There's implications but no statement into the process.

Honestly I don't disagree with your point in that rehashing what others have done is silly. People should be using the time to create a new and interesting story. I suspect what will happen is we learn of the importance of vergences as I believe this will be something Disney will want to spend time on in the new films.

Honestly who knows what direction they'll go if they have another season. I suspect we'll get more backstory on Plagueis and his involvement.
 
Carp said:
Exactly. We are retconning the most powerful beings in the known Star Wars universe to make an irrelevant Star Wars story far important than it needs to be.

One of the great things about the Mandalorian and Andor (and in partially Ahsoka) is that they tells new stories in existing Star Wars areas that were previously vacant. And they do so without greatly affecting existing Star Wars cannon. The Mandalorian and Andor are also good shows that can stand independent of the Skywalker Saga.

The Acolyte doesn't do either of those things. It isn't a good story independently, and more importantly, it essentially spits in the face of the content that came before it, creating huge issues with established Star Wars cannon in the main Skywalker Saga, of which the entirety of Star Wars is built upon.
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Ummmmmmmm

I mean BOba Fett lived in the Mandalorian. Not died like he clearly did in RotJ.

We also have bricks and screws in Andor (/s)
 
zitothebrave said:
Ummmmmmmm

I mean BOba Fett lived in the Mandalorian. Not died like he clearly did in RotJ.

We also have bricks and screws in Andor (/s)
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He clearly didn't "die" in ROTJ, at least on screen. Even when eaten, you are still alive while being digested, something Jabba even mentions. So he would have been ALIVE in the digestive track of the Sarlacc at least for period of days, leaving his fate up to debate.

Sure, the implication is that he died in ROTJ, but he wasn't an especially important character at the time they made ROTJ, so there wasn't any need to revisit it or overly explain that he was 100% dead. And him having survived by shooting his way out of the sarlacc doesn't greatly affect any major story lines throughout Star Wars lore.

You will to explain to me how Andor has even remotely retconned Star Wars.
 
zitothebrave said:
We don't know what the story is. How do we know the Plageuis wasn't involved in the creation? I forget the line, I believe it was something like "you don't know what I sacrificed" or something like that. For all we know Plagueis was there and that was a sacrifice and opened them up for discovery. Who knows we don't because we're not told how the twins were made. Only that they're the same person split. Which I mean could mean even that they're not immaculate conception but some other means. I mean who knows.

Galadriel was a great warrior. And she was wise. Those things aren't mutually exclusive in the elves. Rings of Power's issue wasn't it's characterization of Galadriel, it was it's weird dealing with time. And it's weird design choices.

We have no evidence that the witch mother is more powerful than anyone in the force. She did nothing exceptional in the force aside from scale (it took more witches to possess Kelnacca) and we again don't know hwo the twins were created. There's implications but no statement into the process.

Honestly I don't disagree with your point in that rehashing what others have done is silly. People should be using the time to create a new and interesting story. I suspect what will happen is we learn of the importance of vergences as I believe this will be something Disney will want to spend time on in the new films.

Honestly who knows what direction they'll go if they have another season. I suspect we'll get more backstory on Plagueis and his involvement.
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Galadriel at most only rarely would have picked up a sword and fought and only then at times of incredible need. What made Galadriel special was her inate power, wisdom, and leadership ability. The Rings of Power felt the need to put her martial abilities front and center. They felt the need to show she could outdo men in a traditional male role instead of elevating the importance of her truly unique abilities.

You're right that we don't know if Plaguis was involved in the creation of the twins. But the heavy implication was that the mother's incredible force powers made it possible with the vergence.

And I might be remembering it wrong but I'm pretty sure there was a line at some point about how the Jedi felt threatened by how powerful the mother was.

Ultimately, this was just a poorly told story. The plot was extremely transparent with the only surprise being how poor and transparent it was. Qimir deserved better.
 
Carp said:
He clearly didn't "die" in ROTJ, at least on screen. Even when eaten, you are still alive while being digested, something Jabba even mentions. So he would have been ALIVE in the digestive track of the Sarlacc at least for period of days, leaving his fate up to debate.

Sure, the implication is that he died in ROTJ, but he wasn't an especially important character at the time they made ROTJ, so there wasn't any need to revisit it or overly explain that he was 100% dead. And him having survived by shooting his way out of the sarlacc doesn't greatly affect any major story lines throughout Star Wars lore.

You will to explain to me how Andor has even remotely retconned Star Wars.
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How does anything in Acolyte remotely effect the Saga?

I'm joking in my response. I don't really care. Rise of Skywalker did so much damage to the continuity that I don't really care. If it tells a good story or at least is well written or acted I don't care.
 
The sequels were awful about retconning Star Wars too, and had a lot of cringe parts, like Luke milking a sea cow. I won't deny that. At least the story by itself was mostly good up until somehow Palpatine returned. But even then, at least TROS looked really cool, even if the story was garbage.
 
striker42 said:
Galadriel at most only rarely would have picked up a sword and fought and only then at times of incredible need. What made Galadriel special was her inate power, wisdom, and leadership ability. The Rings of Power felt the need to put her martial abilities front and center. They felt the need to show she could outdo men in a traditional male role instead of elevating the importance of her truly unique abilities.

You're right that we don't know if Plaguis was involved in the creation of the twins. But the heavy implication was that the mother's incredible force powers made it possible with the vergence.

And I might be remembering it wrong but I'm pretty sure there was a line at some point about how the Jedi felt threatened by how powerful the mother was.

Ultimately, this was just a poorly told story. The plot was extremely transparent with the only surprise being how poor and transparent it was. Qimir deserved better.
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Galadriel was a great warrior. She was regarded by Tolkien as one of the finest and mightiest elves in all of middle earth. Doing battle in the Kinslaying at Alqualonde and more. In the movies we're treated to an elder, wiser Galadriel, but also one with a ring of power.

I don't disagree the portrayal of Galadriel wasn't great. Mainly that she was fooled by Sauron when she really was the only one to see through his disguise. But I suspect that will be dealt with next season. I think they did a round about way of later introducing Annatar based on things from teasers. Maybe I'm wrong though.

There's a few implications made, but no facts stated. WE don't know.

My red hat theory was Plagueis is involved with the creation of the twins but assumed they were dead. Somehow he found out they weren't (maybe he knew Osha was alive but not Mae or the other way around) Qimir isn't sith, but is maybe the first Ren, maybe an early Ren. Remember Palpatine used words like Apprentice, which would seem to be the sith preferred term (Jedi being Padawan) Acolyte could be unrelated. Anyway Plagueis knowing now the twins are alive is going to attempt to get them together and finish the ritual which I still believe was done to make them one. Obviously there will be issues with this including direct conflict from Qimir who likely is opposed to the Sith.
 
Carp said:
The sequels were awful about retconning Star Wars too, and had a lot of cringe parts, like Luke milking a sea cow. I won't deny that. At least the story by itself was mostly good up until somehow Palpatine returned. But even then, at least TROS looked really cool, even if the story was garbage.
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Luke milking was done as both an homage to the reluctant teacher and for luke to attempt to scare he off by being gross.

Rise of Skywalker pulled it's pants down and had explosive diarrhea all over canon. Sith Wayfinder, made up and new. Hyperspace Skipping, made up and new. Ties tracking and jumping to hyperspace, made up and new. It also retconned canon novels and comics. As well as previous films. I meant he dumbest being Rey having Anakin's Lightsaber again. Why? WHY? WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYTYYYYYY?

Anyway I don't want to talk about that ****show. My general point being Disney Starwars has lifted and altered many things from legends. They weren't canon before as Lucas did the same thing taking legends ideas and changing them to meet his vision. Be it just taking the name of COruscant and putting it on his planet, taking ideas from West End Games, like Hutts being a race instead of just a title, QUinlon Voss and Aayla Secura, etc.
 
zitothebrave said:
Galadriel was a great warrior. She was regarded by Tolkien as one of the finest and mightiest elves in all of middle earth. Doing battle in the Kinslaying at Alqualonde and more. In the movies we're treated to an elder, wiser Galadriel, but also one with a ring of power.

I don't disagree the portrayal of Galadriel wasn't great. Mainly that she was fooled by Sauron when she really was the only one to see through his disguise. But I suspect that will be dealt with next season. I think they did a round about way of later introducing Annatar based on things from teasers. Maybe I'm wrong though.

There's a few implications made, but no facts stated. WE don't know.

My red hat theory was Plagueis is involved with the creation of the twins but assumed they were dead. Somehow he found out they weren't (maybe he knew Osha was alive but not Mae or the other way around) Qimir isn't sith, but is maybe the first Ren, maybe an early Ren. Remember Palpatine used words like Apprentice, which would seem to be the sith preferred term (Jedi being Padawan) Acolyte could be unrelated. Anyway Plagueis knowing now the twins are alive is going to attempt to get them together and finish the ritual which I still believe was done to make them one. Obviously there will be issues with this including direct conflict from Qimir who likely is opposed to the Sith.
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I think Qimir is sith but he's the apprentice, not the master. Plaguis is the master. I think Plaguis wants Osha to further his own research into creating life using the force. He needed one of the twins to show they had the power he was seeking by killing a Jedi without a weapon.

I think Qimir has his own agenda though. I think he wants an Acolyte to help him overthrow Plaguis. He doesn't want to say apprentice because that would violate the rule of 2. I also think he's much more of a grey Jedi than true Sith.

Qimir seems to be more of the emotions should be embraced not suppressed kind of force user. As such he embraces the Dark Side but he doesn't appear to be pure evil. Maybe a chaotic neutral. He'll kill without a second thought but only does it when it serves a purpose.
 
striker42 said:
I think Qimir is sith but he's the apprentice, not the master. Plaguis is the master. I think Plaguis wants Osha to further his own research into creating life using the force. He needed one of the twins to show they had the power he was seeking by killing a Jedi without a weapon.

I think Qimir has his own agenda though. I think he wants an Acolyte to help him overthrow Plaguis. He doesn't want to say apprentice because that would violate the rule of 2. I also think he's much more of a grey Jedi than true Sith.

Qimir seems to be more of the emotions should be embraced not suppressed kind of force user. As such he embraces the Dark Side but he doesn't appear to be pure evil. Maybe a chaotic neutral. He'll kill without a second thought but only does it when it serves a purpose.
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I mean anything is open.
 
striker42 said:
There was so little story this season that they certainly aren't constrained by much.
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Well you know except all the dead people.

I feel like the second season should be tighter. If you have a clear goal, Vernestra finishign the coverup, Qimir training Osha, and Plageuis using Mae to get his end goal.
 
https://www.ign.com/articles/star-wars-the-acolyte-season-1-review-disney-plus

This captures my feelings. There are some genuinely interesting ideas in the Acolyte, some actors that put on excellent performances, and moments that could have been really good. The problem is the storytelling was terrible.

The thing I agree with most in this review is they didn't tell a complete story. They put things out that might come up in future seasons but there's no guarantee of another season.

With a show like this, you have to tell a full, coherent story in season 1. It's fine setting up for future seasons but not at the cost of the current season. Look at Stranger Things. Season one was a complete story. Sure they left things open for a second season but if it had been a one season show, they had a coherent story.

The Acolyte is not a coherent story at this point. This might be why I feel like they could have made this season in 3 episodes. They put too much unnecessary in the show to tell a complete story.
 
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