And what basis do you have for making this statement that it is some sort of indicator for players?
Kemp
- Thread starter msstate7
- Start date
And what basis do you have for making this statement that it is some sort of indicator for players?
Horsehide Harry
<B>Mr. Free Trade</B>
The point is, that neither are horrible, but neither are very good either. They are classic high floor guys where you don't expect a star but don't fear a crater either.
And the Braves brought BOTH in when they were clearly starting to rebuild or in the middle of a rebuild. The Braves could have (and should have) invested that money elsewhere and looked for upside guys to play those positions where if you hit, you have something and if you miss you've lost little at little monetary cost. Of course Kemp is somewhat the product of Olivera which was a reflection of a "reload" mentality instead of a committed rebuild and Markakis is somewhat of a "reload" signing.
As far as Markakis bringing anything in return for trade, I just don't see that. If the Johns let any kind of "good" deal pass over the last two years in favor of keeping Markakis, then they should be fired. I think they would likely have to pay salary to get an even decent return and would still need an ideal partner.
Isn't the objective of hit ting to make the best contact possible in the majority of situations?
The Braves likely have a payroll floor and likely did not want to give the appearance they were completely giving up (and losing 110 games in the process) 2 years before opening a new stadium they will rely on to generate future revenue.
You can disagree with that, or believe that appearance was made regardless, but I think it's reasonable.
I do think it's funny you seem to think Markakis isn't a key piece on a playoff team (which I agree with) while also arguing that the Braves signing' of him shows they were too far into 'reload' mode.
Horsehide Harry
<B>Mr. Free Trade</B>
I've often said that timing has been bad for the rebuild, meaning that the Braves FO has been constrained by the looming opening of the new park and likely have felt the need to do things that were not optimal choices for a rebuilding team - ie. building the illusion of a competitive team instead of focusing solely on building the best possible team with some distant future date in mind.
And yes, I do think they tried to play the middle of the road a bit to try and appease the masses without costing too much. But, in reality it didn't work. The difference in 90 games lost and 100 may mean something to true baseball fans with an understanding of the history and nuances of the game but the average fan is going to look at the standings and see that the Braves are dead last in baseball or 5th last in baseball and decide they are a horrible team. You at least get the hope for the future factor with hard core baseball fans who can see what is being built, even as they have little patience. The casual fan or average fan really doesn't care.
The horrid nature of incrementally bad baseball is no more significant than an effect of "protection in the line-up." But, it means executives have their competence called into question about things that they can't discuss so they often take an easier path, even though it is less efficient.
As far as Markakis, he was a reload player who would have worked for a true reload team. Has he stood in RF the last few years and not embarrassed himself? Sure. But what does that really mean to a rebuilding team?
As for a payroll floor, I never said that the Braves should have pocketed the money. They should have spent it but more wisely such as looking for upside gambles that they could potentially use to further the actions of the rebuild, whether that be pitching, hitting, defense, whatever.
He struck out at a higher rate than anytime since 2008. That will bring down your numbers even with a higher slg, etc. He had a 98 WRC+. Whether by luck (or lack of it) that is not a better season than 106 WRC+. I mean is crowing about a return of power and still not being able to cross 100 WRC+ really something to crow about?
Should also be noted that something funky was going on with homers in 2016. Whether a ball change or what I don't know. But it seemingly benefited everybody. Will be interesting to see if that continues into 2017.
Why do you keep saying that almost every other day? To reload, you first actually have something to load. They haven't had anything in several years.
Within the context of public statements made by the organization vs. their actions, the initial signing seemed a bit curious. Still, if there was a "grand plan" which wasn't revealed at the time, this can be understood within that context. You can't just completely rebuilt without any veterans. The kids are too green, and there's no indication that Markakis has been anything other than a positive influence in that respect. Definitely there are worse things to complain about this this contract.
Having said that, if another team wanted him badly enough, my idea would be to plug Mallex Smith into that spot.
Markakis-- last year with Orioles- 106 wRC+, 2.5 WAR
Markakis--2015 106 wRC+, 1.5 WAR
Markakis--2016 98 wRC+, 1.1 WAR
Waaaahhh?
No, he wasn't.
Exit velocity has it's uses, however, it is not sole support for a player having a better year. Especially not a minor increase over a previous year. Furthermore, if you "focused on power," and struck out more but hit the ball hard, it doesn't mean you were necessarily a "better hitter."
Markakis had nearly the exact same OPS from this year to last. The main discrepancy in value seems to be league adjusted from 2015-2016. I think its unfair to say his 2015 was luck driven being that his career average is .289. If anything, I'd say it's more likely he was a bit unlucky in 2016. He's a pretty safe bet in 2017 to think he'll have a line extremely close to the last couple of years.
Russ2dollas
10 yr, $185 million Extension
I don't get the focus on Markakis. Who are we putting over there? His contract prevented us from signing whom?
Best case Scenario for us in RF (I'm not seeing another JUp out there) is DPeterson keeps raking and can play RF. Even if he takes a big jump we wouldn't call him up before midyear this year, right? Even if he's ready we can probably move Markakis or have him as a steady bench option for a year while DPeterson makes the minimum.
McCutch will cost too much and doesn't fit our timeline. So I just don't see how Markakis is worth complaining about.
Kemp I get b/c it's a lot of money, for more years and some seem to think he made us win games last year.
Markakis wouldn't make the top 5 of dumb Wren/JS signings.
Best case Scenario for us in RF (I'm not seeing another JUp out there) is DPeterson keeps raking and can play RF. Even if he takes a big jump we wouldn't call him up before midyear this year, right? Even if he's ready we can probably move Markakis or have him as a steady bench option for a year while DPeterson makes the minimum.
McCutch will cost too much and doesn't fit our timeline. So I just don't see how Markakis is worth complaining about.
Kemp I get b/c it's a lot of money, for more years and some seem to think he made us win games last year.
Markakis wouldn't make the top 5 of dumb Wren/JS signings.
Russ2dollas
10 yr, $185 million Extension
For Kemp to make up for his defense he needs to have an OPS north of 0.850 that he had for us. If he can stay healthy for a year and hit over 850, then fine. We can put a defensive replacement out in LF for the latter innings and mitigate his issues.
I just don't think he's going to hit north of 800 OPS for the remainder of the contract. If we could DH him some it might help.
If he is going to hit like he did for ATL then we can deal with him in LF. When Dickey pitches it will all be Ks, easy outs, and HRs so that will be ok.
I just don't think he's going to hit north of 800 OPS for the remainder of the contract. If we could DH him some it might help.
If he is going to hit like he did for ATL then we can deal with him in LF. When Dickey pitches it will all be Ks, easy outs, and HRs so that will be ok.
LD% increased
Exit velocity increased
Hard hit profile improved
BABIP decreased
Yes, the numbers that are a function of results are not indicative of a better hitter. His batted ball profile showed he had a better year.
To be fair, it's hard to say he had an overall better year.
I do think it's fair to say that his batted ball profile increased, yet his BABIP decreased, which indicates that he definitely saw some worse luck and his numbers may not have fully reflected the improvement in his contact.
Millwood1Hitter
Anytime Now Frankie...
We're really bitching about our outfield? Really? Our outfield is one of the best in baseball.
We have the best defensive CF in the game in Ender. Kemp is a former CF who won a gold glove IN CENTERFIELD, LF is much easier to play. Markakis is a 2 time gold glove winner in RIGHT FIELD, the position he plays for us.
Offensively, when he's healthy Kemp is one of the most feared right handed power hitters in the game. Ender continues to improve and is a really nice top of the order hitter to compliment Swanson and Markakis is a grinder who puts together a professional at bat every time he comes to the plate, I guess you could say he's a modern day Paul O'Neill.
We have the best defensive CF in the game in Ender. Kemp is a former CF who won a gold glove IN CENTERFIELD, LF is much easier to play. Markakis is a 2 time gold glove winner in RIGHT FIELD, the position he plays for us.
Offensively, when he's healthy Kemp is one of the most feared right handed power hitters in the game. Ender continues to improve and is a really nice top of the order hitter to compliment Swanson and Markakis is a grinder who puts together a professional at bat every time he comes to the plate, I guess you could say he's a modern day Paul O'Neill.
Isn't this the argument we have with FIP and ERA? He may have a batted ball profile in 2016 that was better than 2015 but in the end the results were not as good. His contact rate dropped from 84% to 79%. He did strike out more often.
A thing to note especially when it comes to his hard hit % is that was up league wide. It was 28% in 2015 compared to 31% in 2016. It was also the 2nd highest number that we have since it was being recorded starting in 2002. Just like the crazy HR increase that the league had. Which is why it's important to look at how he compares to the league and in that regard he was noticeably worse than in 2015.
Fair points. Will be interesting to see how it trends moving forward.
Which is a big deal when the league OPS jumps from 721 in 2015 to 739 in 2016. Just like the Braves payroll, if everyone else is getting better and you are staying the same then you are technically getting worse.
I am a beleiver of the juiced ball theory. The league knows that fans love the homerun ball. Don't want juiced players? Juice the baseball!