Megathread: Braves lose Maitan, Bae and 10+ plus International Sanctions.

Forever Fredi said:
The TC article said Eddie and Terry will not be returning to Coaching staff.

They kept Snitker, kept Wash who just gives the green light to everyone, and Chuck Hernandez who isn’t doing a very good job of developing pitchers and we get rid of the somewhat decent and competent guys. I definitely thought Eddie was a lifer.
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The Marietta Journal article from last week mentioned that Hart wants a bench coach that understands analytics when it comes to lineup construction and matchups, and that they also want a coach who is a specialist in base-running given the base running woes of the younger guys. Wash is already a valued specialist when it comes to infield instruction, and we have plenty of young infielders. So it may not be so much about the general competence of TP and Eddie, but rather a push toward specialization in areas of need on the staff. If so, I'm supportive of that.

This goes back to the conundrum of Hart I mentioned a while back. I believe his lack of oversight and leadership of baseball ops is reason enough not to extend his contract. He deserves to be fired. But when I compare his philosophies and his likely FO hires to what Dayton Moore would do, it makes me feel the Braves organization is better off keeping Hart. Oy.
 
dak said:
This goes back to the conundrum of Hart I mentioned a while back. I believe his lack of oversight and leadership of baseball ops is reason enough not to extend his contract. He deserves to be fired. But when I compare his philosophies and his likely FO hires to what Dayton Moore would do, it makes me feel the Braves organization is better off keeping Hart. Oy.
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I agree. I've been anti-Hart from the start. But I'm more anti-Moore.
 
nsacpi said:
Is sacrificial lamb better? Sometimes the lamb deserves to be sacrificed. But he is still a sacrificial lamb offered for the benefit of others.
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I think thrown to the wolves is a better idiom. It doesn't imply Coppy is innocent or getting unfairly blamed.

There is likely far more guilt to go around than just Coppy and Blakely but they were thrown to the MLB wolves in hopes of appeasing their appetites.

What I take issue with is the idea that Coppy was getting unfairly blamed or that he didn't deserve what he got. Everything I've read from every writer pretty much confirms that Coppy got what was coming to him. And a lot of the sources saying this were coming from outside the organization.

I think Coppy's quick firing was definitely an attempt by Hart to keep that anchor from dragging him under as well but in any circumstance, Coppy was an anchor headed down.
 
nsacpi said:
I agree. I've been anti-Hart from the start. But I'm more anti-Moore.
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It's okay to believe that Moore isn't the answer. There are good arguments against him. But I think hiring him is far, far preferable to keeping Hart.

Hart failed all over the place with Coppy. It's not just rules violations, it's the fact that the atmosphere in the front office is toxic and people hate working there. If Hart was so far removed from the situation that he couldn't tell his people were miserable then it's an outrageous dereliction of duty. If he knew Coppy was reviled and yet did nothing to fix the situation then he's complicit.

If Hart isn't ousted by this investigation then he'll be the one picking the next GM and overseeing him. He's proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he can't be trusted to do that.

At least with Moore we'd be getting someone we know we can trust to run a functional organization.
 
striker42 said:
I think thrown to the wolves is a better idiom. It doesn't imply Coppy is innocent or getting unfairly blamed.

There is likely far more guilt to go around than just Coppy and Blakely but they were thrown to the MLB wolves in hopes of appeasing their appetites.

What I take issue with is the idea that Coppy was getting unfairly blamed or that he didn't deserve what he got. Everything I've read from every writer pretty much confirms that Coppy got what was coming to him. And a lot of the sources saying this were coming from outside the organization.

I think Coppy's quick firing was definitely an attempt by Hart to keep that anchor from dragging him under as well but in any circumstance, Coppy was an anchor headed down.
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Yes. But it is a bit odd how muted or non-existent the rumblings were (aside from Rosenthal and the Wren family scribe) about Coppy's management issues prior to his resignation.
 
striker42 said:
It's okay to believe that Moore isn't the answer. There are good arguments against him. But I think hiring him is far, far preferable to keeping Hart.

Hart failed all over the place with Coppy. It's not just rules violations, it's the fact that the atmosphere in the front office is toxic and people hate working there. If Hart was so far removed from the situation that he couldn't tell his people were miserable then it's an outrageous dereliction of duty. If he knew Coppy was reviled and yet did nothing to fix the situation then he's complicit.

If Hart isn't ousted by this investigation then he'll be the one picking the next GM and overseeing him. He's proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he can't be trusted to do that.

At least with Moore we'd be getting someone we know we can trust to run a functional organization.
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The thing is Hart will be gone one way or another in a year or two. We could be stuck with Moore for a long time.
 
nsacpi said:
Yes. But it is a bit odd how muted or non-existent the rumblings were (aside from Rosenthal and the Wren family scribe) about Coppy's management issues prior to his resignation.
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I recommend anyone who hasn't go listen to the Buster Olney podcast episode where DOB comes on and talks. DOB was fairly candid about how shocked he was when all this broke. He talked to multiple people in the front office (I got the feel these weren't execs, they were rank and file) and the universal response was that Coppy was terrible to work for but that everyone was too afraid to say anything for fear of getting demoted or fired.

It was a messed up situation for sure but it usually is when the top executives stop caring about employee morale.

nsacpi said:
The thing is Hart will be gone one way or another in a year or two. We could be stuck with Moore for a long time.
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We'd probably be saddled with whoever Hart brings in as GM for 5+ years at least. GM's have longer shelf lives than managers (at least they do when they're not smashing MLB rules). Hart and whoever he selects could have the franchise run into the ground by the time we'd be free of them.
 
striker42 said:
We'd probably be saddled with whoever Hart brings in as GM for 5+ years at least. GM's have longer shelf lives than managers (at least they do when they're not smashing MLB rules). Hart and whoever he selects could have the franchise run into the ground by the time we'd be free of them.
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I guess my hope is that Hart for all his flaws would select someone better than Moore. Kind of a devil-you-don't know kind of preference.
 
You know, there’s a pretty good chance that we didn’t hear about the personal failings of Wren and Coppolella because the media covering this team is just hilariously bad. Bowman’s just a rank incompetent, DOB is too busy replying to his worst Twitter mentions to break news and Shanks is just Shanks. Who there do you trust to write a penetrating expose of the front office dynamics?

Basically, we get some news when a national guy deigns to turn his attention to Atlanta. And since we’ve been crummy for four years, they don’t have any reason to do that.
 
MadduxFanII said:
You know, there’s a pretty good chance that we didn’t hear about the personal failings of Wren and Coppolella because the media covering this team is just hilariously bad. Bowman’s just a rank incompetent, DOB is too busy replying to his worst Twitter mentions to break news and Shanks is just Shanks. Who there do you trust to write a penetrating expose of the front office dynamics?

Basically, we get some news when a national guy deigns to turn his attention to Atlanta. And since we’ve been crummy for four years, they don’t have any reason to do that.
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Well said. The fact that all this was going on and DOB admitted to having zero idea about it told me all I needed to know.
 
Enscheff said:
It will be interesting to see how teams like the Astros and Cubs handle their aging SPs.

I fully expect the Cubs to do the smart thing and let Arrieta walk. The problem is they replaced him with Q, who is good, but not Arrieta of a couple years ago great. They paid big money for Lester's decline, and are already seeing him start to fade going into his age 34 season with 3/85 or 4/100 still owed to him. Trading away prospects for BP arms and signing 30+ year old SPs to 9 figure deals isn't sustainable for any team.

Playing the now vs future game is tough, but I think the Cubs have leaned a little too much into the now.

Of course, one of these big market teams is going to get an Ace in Ohtani for essentially nothing and completely tip the balance in their favor, but I don't think any team is counting on winning that lottery as part of their long term plan.
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Agree. They've loaded up for the now and have paid a pretty heavy price in terms of prospects. They have some big commitments coming down the pike with Bryant, Hendricks, and Russell ready to hit arbitration before next season (Baez and Schwarber before 2019), but they will also be shedding some payroll as well with Davis, Lackey, Jay, and Arrieta coming off the books. Curious to see if they try to move Heyward to free up more space. Rizzo is a bargain right now as is Quintana. So while they have paid a heavy price, they probably have more flexibility than one would think at first look.
 
Cubs paid the price and got a World Series. If we got one World Series and didn’t sniff the playoffs for another half decade to decade I’d be cool with that.
 
MadduxFanII said:
You know, there’s a pretty good chance that we didn’t hear about the personal failings of Wren and Coppolella because the media covering this team is just hilariously bad. Bowman’s just a rank incompetent, DOB is too busy replying to his worst Twitter mentions to break news and Shanks is just Shanks. Who there do you trust to write a penetrating expose of the front office dynamics?

Basically, we get some news when a national guy deigns to turn his attention to Atlanta. And since we’ve been crummy for four years, they don’t have any reason to do that.
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Shanks claimed he "knew for months" about the toxicity of the work situation. I guess it didn't suit his radio or columns to report any of this though because he has to use that time to write about how oh bee pee sux
 
MadduxFanII said:
You know, there’s a pretty good chance that we didn’t hear about the personal failings of Wren and Coppolella because the media covering this team is just hilariously bad. Bowman’s just a rank incompetent, DOB is too busy replying to his worst Twitter mentions to break news and Shanks is just Shanks. Who there do you trust to write a penetrating expose of the front office dynamics?

Basically, we get some news when a national guy deigns to turn his attention to Atlanta. And since we’ve been crummy for four years, they don’t have any reason to do that.
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no way. far more likely a conspiracy.
 
striker42 said:
I think thrown to the wolves is a better idiom. It doesn't imply Coppy is innocent or getting unfairly blamed.

There is likely far more guilt to go around than just Coppy and Blakely but they were thrown to the MLB wolves in hopes of appeasing their appetites.

What I take issue with is the idea that Coppy was getting unfairly blamed or that he didn't deserve what he got. Everything I've read from every writer pretty much confirms that Coppy got what was coming to him. And a lot of the sources saying this were coming from outside the organization.

I think Coppy's quick firing was definitely an attempt by Hart to keep that anchor from dragging him under as well but in any circumstance, Coppy was an anchor headed down.
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Make no mistake, I am no Coppy fan. I think he was a below average GM. I do not like the bulk of his work. I am not against him getting fired. He always struck me as a guy who was just a little smarter than all the morons in the room, so the morons were impressed. Kind of like when a 12 year old turns on their grandparent's PC when they can't figure it out, and they rave about how smart the kid is.

What I'm against is this notion the Braves are trying to sell, yet again, that all is well and the team is marching merrily along.

There have been problems with this rebuild from the very start, and most of it had to do with this moronic idea that they were so smart they could rebuild in time for the stadium to open in 2017. They aren't that smart. They couldn't rebuild by 2017.

Now they are stuck in this awful scenario where they have a brand new stadium, but revenue is down, payroll isn't going up, the team is awful, and FO members are scrambling to shift blame. The stage is set for someone like Hart to make desperate "win now" moves and completely scuttle the rebuild by shortening the Braves window of contention to 2-3 years rather than 6+.
 
nsacpi said:
The thing is Hart will be gone one way or another in a year or two. We could be stuck with Moore for a long time.
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I hope they just forego hiring a GM until Hart is gone after this year. Then they can bring in someone like McLeod and finally drag the Braves kicking and screaming into the 21st century.
 
Enscheff said:
The article says Hart will be going down too either because he knew and is complicit, or he didn't know and is incompetent. So yes, Coppy was fired as a scapegoat in hopes of saving Hart's job.

Why is this still so hard to understand? Every source that isn't affiliated with the Braves keep saying Coppynwas sacrificed. It's like Braves homers love the taste of sand.
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Yeah this isn't what you meant when you said he was the scapegoat and you know it. I am rather apathetic to the whole situation and the front office. It certainly has a bad look for the rest of the FO as well no matter what the findings. But if what is said was true, Coppy %100 deserved to be fired. That isn't a scapegoat my friend.

And please link to every source that says Coppy was scapegoated, since that is what you're claiming.
 
There have also been reports of Hart blowing up at scouts and browbeating Snit with players watching. He's been a mentor to Coppy in all respects I suspect, including breaking and bending the rules. Btw someone ordered Coppy to call every team to shop HO after he was arrested. Nice boss.
 
The issue with wanting the Braves to go into the 21st century is, once again, John Schuerholz. If Schuerholz is sticking around, he has enough power to forcefully push back against a "move into the 21st century".

We don't want John Hart gone, because it will mean that John Schuerholz and his nepotism and the "good ole boys" club is still going to be there. He'll just appoint another one of his "ole boys" and have that ole boy be his puppet and do what he wants them to do. At least this "ole boy" wants to try to mix in analytics. Schuerholz sticks around instead of him? We have nepotism to deal with and we can COMPLETELY forget about mixing in ANY kind of analytics.

It's not John Hart we have to worry about. It's John Schuerholz we have to worry about and he's not getting fired, in fact it's more likely if the Braves have another bad year, he appoints himself as President of Baseball Ops and has his son be the GM then anything good come out of it.

If Schuerholz doesn't get pushed out by Major League Baseball in the investigation, the Braves are in deep, deep doodoo.
 
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