Megathread: Braves lose Maitan, Bae and 10+ plus International Sanctions.

[jpx7]

We heard about front office trouble well before he was fired. Rosenthal reported that.

Also, I think the Braves weren't aware of the investigation before like a week before Coppy was fired. IIRC, that's when they were notified by MLB.

I'll admit that it's entirely possible that Coppy's firing was based on factors above and beyond the rules violations. However I think the most likely factor that added to Coppy getting fired was ability as a manager. Wren's poor relationships with employees was a factor in him getting canned. We know people hated working for Coppy so I imagine that went into consideration.

At what point do the people hiring these GMs—who've now reportedly hired two GMs in a row who boast "poor relationships with employees" and subordinates who "hated working for" them—shoulder some blame for failing to engender non-toxic working environments?

 

[Enscheff]

At what point do the people hiring these GMs—who've now reportedly hired two GMs in a row who boast "poor relationships with employees" and subordinates who "hated working for" them—shoulder some blame for failing to engender non-toxic working environments?

Probably after next season when the Braves lose 85+ games and once again fail to draw 2.5M+ in attendance to a brand new stadium.

Hopefully that opens the door for a McLeod/Martinez type of modern day leadership group.

 

[striker42]

At what point do the people hiring these GMs—who've now reportedly hired two GMs in a row who boast "poor relationships with employees" and subordinates who "hated working for" them—shoulder some blame for failing to engender non-toxic working environments?

This is one of many reasons why I'm a fan of getting Hart out of power and turning the franchise over to Dayton Moore.

 

[Enscheff]

This is one of many reasons why I'm a fan of getting Hart out of power and turning the franchise over to Dayton Moore.

You want the Braves to attempt the "lucky sequencing and elite BP" model of team building?

Seems like a pretty bad plan.

 

[BeanieAntics]

Look at where the key players for Twins and Astros are in terms of experience. A lot of the key performers on those teams are barely arbitration-eligible and for those teams to enjoy continued success, it's going to take some coin. Correa's not going to be making $550,000 forever. Again, think of the early-1990s Braves where a similar dynamic was taking place. I will give you the Indians, but I think the Rockies and Diamondbacks are kind of flukes.

chop2chip, I was thinking about the same trade. When folks in here were decrying Moore's action, I was one who stated "it's a now-for-later trade;" which is clearly was. Shields and Davis both contributed to the Royals' success as Moore saw the window closing a bit. Three of the four guys they traded (Montgomery, Myers, and Odorizzi) have had varying degrees of success at the big league level, but are clearly contributors. But I am hard-pressed to believe the Royals make the post-season without making that trade or one like it.

I would agree if this were a one time thing, but for the past several seasons about half of the teams that make the playoffs are in the bottom half in terms of payroll. Its not the absolute necessity that it used to be. It helps, sure. When you have money to go along with good analytics and a good system you can produce organizations that currently look like the Dodgers and Yankees. But when you have money and you run your organization poorly and acquire these huge contracts for sub-optimal players, you get yourself in a situation like the Tigers are in.

 

[striker42]

You want the Braves to attempt the "lucky sequencing and elite BP" model of team building?

Seems like a pretty bad plan.

No, I want the Braves to attempt the respect our employees and retain front office talent model. Also, Moore made two World Series (winning one) with the Royals. THE ROYALS! He might not be your preferred style but he's certainly proven himself to be a credible GM.

Under different circumstances I might want a different guy. After two straight GMs that antagonized employees and right after the last GM getting forced out for unsavory dealings, I think we need a guy like Moore to come in and rebuild the front office.

 

[striker42]

I would agree if this were a one time thing, but for the past several seasons about half of the teams that make the playoffs are in the bottom half in terms of payroll. Its not the absolute necessity that it used to be. It helps, sure. When you have money to go along with good analytics and a good system you can produce organizations that currently look like the Dodgers and Yankees. But when you have money and you run your organization poorly and acquire these huge contracts for sub-optimal players, you get yourself in a situation like the Tigers are in.

You get plenty of bottom half teams making the playoffs but they tend to only make it for a year or two and then fall back to earth. Cash poor teams have very short windows. If you're the Dodgers, Cubs, or Red Sox, the money tends to let you get to the playoffs over and over.

 

[Knucksie]

so let me ask, to the people who think the FO forced coppy out and are making things up about him...where are these reports from writers coming from? the reports of other execs hating dealing with him? are they made up? made up by the braves' FO? him pissing off an agent - was that made up by the FO?

Two things for certain: the Shelby Miller was his crowning achievement. He may have been slightly arrogant from the success of that transaction and wanted to replicate it. Whether true or not, it helped drive up asking prices. So, yeah, that might tackle with some of the peers.

The other was that there was a direct quote regarding HO trade efforts before he was actually dealt. It was verbatim, "I can't believe that he even asked."

Yes, it's possible that he may have rubbed some other GM's the wrong way.

 

[CyYoung31]

I would agree if this were a one time thing, but for the past several seasons about half of the teams that make the playoffs are in the bottom half in terms of payroll. Its not the absolute necessity that it used to be. It helps, sure. When you have money to go along with good analytics and a good system you can produce organizations that currently look like the Dodgers and Yankees. But when you have money and you run your organization poorly and acquire these huge contracts for sub-optimal players, you get yourself in a situation like the Tigers are in.

You're joking, right?

The Tigers were perennial World Series contenders for a decade. Only now are they rebuilding. That's a run that only a decent payroll allows.

 

[thewupk]

You get plenty of bottom half teams making the playoffs but they tend to only make it for a year or two and then fall back to earth. Cash poor teams have very short windows. If you're the Dodgers, Cubs, or Red Sox, the money tends to let you get to the playoffs over and over.

Which is the same as it's been for awhile. Mid and small market teams have to run their teams well and have windows in which they compete. Large market teams have money to cover mistakes and don't have to be run particually well to make the playoffs. Large market teams that are run well will be continuous contenders.

For the Braves to contend they have to be run well. And part of that means joining the analytics revolution so we don't get any more Matt Kemps.

And this also ignores the obvious that anything can happen in a one off season.

 

[NYCBrave]

Read again. I respect analytics, but if you look at which teams are in the playoffs, I think it's safe to say that payroll is likely a bigger contributor to success. I think analytics help make teams a little better. I think good players regardless of how one derives at their value are what matters. You folks talk about process being more important than results. Sorry. It isn't. That doesn't mean one should subscribe to any process, but most any GM with half a brain can put together a process that makes sense within the salary constraints he faces.

Half the things you stat guys talk about I figured out when I was 12 years old in the mid-1960s. Statistics are two-dimensional representations and one has to get past what are termed "counting stats" to differentiate the value of players. No crap. I subscribed to a lot of the early Bill James' stuff because it did just that. I see a lot of what is being thrown around now amounts to improved scouting information. But even that can be misleading. Raw velocity. Effective velocity. Helpful stuff. But if it doesn't lead to an ability to throw quality strikes, it's just information. We collect so much data across our lives, but so little of it is actually useful. I'm all for analyzing the living daylights out of stuff, but if it doesn't lead to effective application, it remains an exercise.

Great points, and in fact FanGraphs (an analytics site) had an article about this yesterday. The widening gap between the teams with money and those without, as evidenced by the playoffs. It also noted how the high payroll teams are actually now hiring smart people, so they're not making the same mistakes as in years past.

https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/postseason-reveals-widening-gap-between-haves-have-nots/

 

[nsacpi]

Which is the same as it's been for awhile. Mid and small market teams have to run their teams well and have windows in which they compete. Large market teams have money to cover mistakes and don't have to be run particually well to make the playoffs. Large market teams that are run well will be continuous contenders.

For the Braves to contend they have to be run well. And part of that means joining the analytics revolution so we don't get any more Matt Kemps.

And this also ignores the obvious that anything can happen in a one off season.

The Pirates have come the closest to running a team the way I would. I think a team like that or one with a slightly higher payroll like the Braves is capable of having a fairly long competitive window between rebuilds. Doesn't guarantee making it to the World Series, but my theory is you want to maximize the number of times you make the playoffs. Once you get in anything can happen.

 

[Enscheff]

The Pirates have come the closest to running a team the way I would. I think a team like that or one with a slightly higher payroll like the Braves is capable of having a fairly long competitive window between rebuilds. Doesn't guarantee making it to the World Series, but my theory is you want to maximize the number of times you make the playoffs. Once you get in anything can happen.

I like what the Astros appear to be doing. I think the Cubs have spent too much prospect capital on win now moves and we can already see the end of their window.

 

[thewupk]

The Pirates have come the closest to running a team the way I would. I think a team like that or one with a slightly higher payroll like the Braves is capable of having a fairly long competitive window between rebuilds. Doesn't guarantee making it to the World Series, but my theory is you want to maximize the number of times you make the playoffs. Once you get in anything can happen.

This is true. However for that to happen to the Braves would require like 90% (made up number) efficiency in the FO. No wasted FA moves. Not losing many trades. That's hard. There is always that temptation to make a big splash to get you over the hump once you are close.

 

[thewupk]

I like what the Astros appear to be doing. I think the Cubs have spent too much prospect capital on win now moves and we can already see the end of their window.

The Astros are what the Braves were in like 2013.

 

[nsacpi]

This is true. However for that to happen to the Braves would require like 90% (made up number) efficiency in the FO. No wasted FA moves. Not losing many trades. That's hard. There is always that temptation to make a big splash to get you over the hump once you are close.

that's right...they have to be extremely disciplined and avoid taking any big risks with free agents

 

[Carp]

I'm not surprised that Glavine has an interest in front office stuff. If memory serves he played a key roll in union negotiations as a player rep.

He was the Union Prez for several years wasn't he?

 

[Super]

I don't think any of it is made up.

But you don't think it's odd we didn't hear anything about any of it until he was fired? Are you really that naive?

So the Braves FO allowed the reporters to release their conversations with other execs once they decided they wanted coppy out? or what, exactly, are you implying?

 

[50PoundHead]

I like what the Astros appear to be doing. I think the Cubs have spent too much prospect capital on win now moves and we can already see the end of their window.

Challenge for the Astros will be expanding payroll as guys like Correa become more expensive. Of course, they brought in McCann and Verlander (McCann with some money coming along and I don't know what the Tigers sent along with Verlander) so they must have some spare coin. Astros had a good run of drafts and they haven't squandered boatloads of talent to acquire guys, so they may be able to maintain this.

 

[nsacpi]

Challenge for the Astros will be expanding payroll as guys like Correa become more expensive. Of course, they brought in McCann and Verlander (McCann with some money coming along and I don't know what the Tigers sent along with Verlander) so they must have some spare coin. Astros had a good run of drafts and they haven't squandered boatloads of talent to acquire guys, so they may be able to maintain this.

Their payroll topped 120,000 on opening day this year. It will be interesting to see how high it goes. The Altuve deal is the equivalent of the Curry deal (not the one he just signed) for the Golden State Warriors.