Megathread: Braves lose Maitan, Bae and 10+ plus International Sanctions.

Enscheff said:
Umm, when Kemp was acquired everyone with any analytical knowledge knew he was toast. The reasoning behind acquiring him was literally "our scouts think he has something left". Many on these boards agreed.

Markakis was signed as a way to appease the analytical illiterate faction of the fan base and the FO. It worked perfectly.

Swanson was promoted because the dinosaurs literally had no idea how much surplus value it would cost the organization. It was a spur of the moment idea by Hart with zero thought put into it.

Again, the lack of seeing what is really going on here is comical.
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Well offensively Kemp does have something left. And for the first 4-5 months as a Brave, he certainly did show to be a useful player. His injuries ultimately lead to his downfall this year, but given his history, that shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

Regardless, he wasn't acquired because we wanted him. He was acquired because we wanted to get rid of HO while also attempting to save face in front of the media and fans. In other words, completely releasing HO was not an option for them.

Neck was signed for name recognition and because he was actually a pretty good player. Despite your disdain, he's been a solid player and being paid at the rate of most solid players. He's far from the top of the Braves troubles.

I'm failing to recall what Coppy actually said about Swanson, so I won't touch that for now.
 
Carp said:
Well offensively Kemp does have something left. And for the first 4-5 months as a Brave, he certainly did show to be a useful player. His injuries ultimately lead to his downfall this year, but given his history, that shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

Regardless, he wasn't acquired because we wanted him. He was acquired because we wanted to get rid of HO while also attempting to save face in front of the media and fans. In other words, completely releasing HO was not an option for them.

Neck was signed for name recognition and because he was actually a pretty good player. Despite your disdain, he's been a solid player and being paid at the rate of most solid players. He's far from the top of the Braves troubles.

I'm failing to recall what Coppy actually said about Swanson, so I won't touch that for now.
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It was a buster olney interview. He said that he'd never even thought about promoting Swanson until John Hart brought it up while they discussed Eric Aybar trade. John S then immediately agreed and he bowed to the wisdom of two HOFers.
 
striker42 said:
Shoeless Joe Jackson says hi.

It's not entirely preposterous. Losing players we signed this year would be logical. If we were bundling we'd have never gotten them but for the illegal acts. Also, there is a precedent for this with the Sox.

Preventing us from signing international players is another punishment with an established history.

With Maitan, it's a question of the evidence. If they find we gave him illegal benefits then the only thing keeping them from making him a free agent is determining whether or not that's a fair punishment. If they're looking to make an example then they'll make Maitan a free agent.

Finally, the draft pick is one of the more public ways of punishing us. Taking away the 8th pick on top of everything else would be very, very harsh but it would send a strong message. Perhaps losing a second rounder is more likely but I wouldn't put taking away the 8th pick past MLB.
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FWIW, the rumblings I heard on XM yesterday were that it has more to do with the fact that we apparently put he and his family up in a hotel as the signing day approached so that no one else could find him to try to change his mind.

There was also a mention that Coppy "offered Waters a car to sign a below-slot deal", and that it was dismissed as being a joke. We obviously have no idea if that has any legs.
 
chop2chip said:
Yup. Maybe the Braves jump ahead on this Maitan controversy and trade him before MLB can rip him away! Not sure what they would do in a circumstance like that.
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Can't happen. All trades must ultimately be approved by the Commissioner's Office - quite sure that there's a freeze on every player in the organization until this is all cleared up to a certain point.
 
I doubt we're going to be doing a lot of wheeling and dealing with the FO in flux, and I'm completely comfortable with that.
 
clvclv said:
FWIW, the rumblings I heard on XM yesterday were that it has more to do with the fact that we apparently put he and his family up in a hotel as the signing day approached so that no one else could find him to try to change his mind.

There was also a mention that Coppy "offered Waters a car to sign a below-slot deal", and that it was dismissed as being a joke. We obviously have no idea if that has any legs.
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A lot of this stuff they can't prove. If Waters doesn't snitch which he won't, then I don't see them taking any pick from us at all. A hotel room? Seriously? That's not bad enough to make Maitain a FA. A lot of this stuff seems to be getting overblown. In the end Encheff may be right and it was just a way for Coppy to be canned.
 
nsacpi said:
Personally, I had him pegged as more of a psychopath, and I'm not kidding about that.

But I'm not sure that's worse that Hart and JS, who come across as detached, tied to some mythical past that really never existed, and also guys who were NOT all that good in their primes, except as skillful small group politicians (aka backscratchers).

The combination has not been a good one. It is a small miracle that some aspects of the rebuild have gone as well as they have.
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Don't know about psychopath, but he had this really visceral aggressiveness that was bound to turn a few folks--both inside and outside the organization--off. I've spent all of my adult life in politics/government and I've seen similar things happen in that realm. New guy comes in guns a-blazin' (and mouth a-flappin') with a "smartest guy in the room" swagger. Needless to say, establishment types don't cotton to that (and sometimes the establishment is right and sometimes stodgily wrong) and the baby grabs a surfboard to ride the inevitable bathwater wave.

For my part, I live with anything except inconsistency and whoever has been in charge of this inconsistent re-build has to step up and take responsibility.
 
Enscheff said:
Umm, when Kemp was acquired everyone with any analytical knowledge knew he was toast. The reasoning behind acquiring him was literally "our scouts think he has something left". Many on these boards agreed.

Markakis was signed as a way to appease the analytical illiterate faction of the fan base and the FO. It worked perfectly.

Swanson was promoted because the dinosaurs literally had no idea how much surplus value it would cost the organization. It was a spur of the moment idea by Hart with zero thought put into it.

Again, the lack of seeing what is really going on here is comical.
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Kemp can still hit when he's healthy. He was a force until his hamstring problems. If anything, greater reliance on scouting would have a greater chance of revealing whether his body could hold up.

In any event, Kemp was a total business move. HO was an embarrassment to the organization but for some reason the money men have issues with the idea of just cutting guys like HO when they're owed a ton of money. So we traded him for Kemp. If we don't have HO then we don't have Kemp right now. It was a move motivated by off the field considerations.

With Markakis and Swanson you ignore the business side of things. The Braves are a for profit business. The main motivation of fans is to win championships. The main motivation of the front office is to make money. Markakis and Swanson are good examples of emphasizing immediate returns at the cost of something in the future.

With Markakis, the Braves needed to put a watchable product on the field during rebuilding. If ticket sales and TV ratings dive too much, then that will reflect negatively on the front office. So we signed Markakis. He provided solid, if not great production during the rebuild. He was a known name. He made the team more watchable.

With Swanson, the front office was looking at the opening of the new stadium and needed a marketing darling. Swanson was perfect. But it's hard to market a guy in AAA. Bringing him up to the majors with great fanfare really fit the Braves immediate business needs.

These guys aren't out there flailing like idiots. They're too smart for that. They probably knew Markakis would be a bit of a drag by 2018 and that they were giving up "surplus value" by bringing up Swanson. But you have to understand that their motivations are not your motivations.
 
Simply cutting HO was the right move. Getting Kemp back made zero sense unless the FO believed he'd be a valuable contributor.
 
"Business needs" should have been taken into consideration before starting a rebuild.

Rebuilds always result in the loss of the casual fan and a short term decrease in value of the franchise.

Once starting down the rebuild road then good FO hold to a rigorous discipline and this Braves rebuild has been all over the map.
 
clvclv said:
FWIW, the rumblings I heard on XM yesterday were that it has more to do with the fact that we apparently put he and his family up in a hotel as the signing day approached so that no one else could find him to try to change his mind.

There was also a mention that Coppy "offered Waters a car to sign a below-slot deal", and that it was dismissed as being a joke. We obviously have no idea if that has any legs.
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Waters signed for $1.5 million, which was only about $100 K below his slot. Not enough money to make that kind of difference. Padres pick two ahead of him took only $1.3 M.
 
Southcack77 said:
For the most part I agree with this, Harry.

I'm not as worried about panic moves because I don't think anyone left has any reason to panic.

The new gm, if there is a new GM, might want to make a splash. That guy will have a long rope though, being new.

We will see what the penalty will be, if any, and go from there.
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My take as well, and I'm only half-kidding when I mention DMGM bringing Yost and trying to sign Moustakas as part of the "fix". Moose is an obvious fit as the "splash" (even though an imperfect one as many have pointed out) at a position of need - particularly if the penalties somehow include the loss of Maitan. I've listened to Yost's weekly interviews on XM, and he seems MUCH more open to the numbers-side than ANYONE associated with our dugouts thus far. Of course, the Old Guard is more likely to let Ned slowly drag the organization further that way since he and Dayton are "one of them" at heart. There's no doubt that DMGM would be given a "longer rope" than anyone out there if he's willing to come riding in on a white horse and scoop all their *sses out of the fire. He's also likely going to be given a little more financial flexibility - assuming there's some money available (which has rightfully been questioned) - to accelerate the contention timeline and try to make all this "yesterday's news" ASAP.

JMO, but this whole mess makes me feel like they'll definitely be bigger players on the 3B market now - whether it makes sense from an analytical standpoint or not. The "answer" doesn't look to be in the system, and if Riley does work out you can just turn him into Kemp's replacement. There's enough money coming off the books to easily afford Moose if they want him. If they really are able to move Markakis' money (as they seem to be confident that they can do), there's arguably enough money to add Moustakas AND one of the available big-name Closers this winter.

Is that enough to push them into the playoffs? I have no clue, but replacing our 3B hole and Markakis with Moose and Acuna is probably enough to get them in the discussion, and hanging their hopes on the young Pitchers taking steps forward sure smells a helluva lot like 1991 to me. If the financial flexibility actually is there to "fix" the pen and Julio bounces back, it's certainly not out of the question. No one's questioning those who disagree with that approach - the numbers you provide make the case for you - but as you rightly point out, the Old Guard only buys into that slightly, if at all.
 
It stands to reason that MLB is going to look into what Hart knew and when he knew it.

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striker42 said:
Kemp can still hit when he's healthy. He was a force until his hamstring problems. If anything, greater reliance on scouting would have a greater chance of revealing whether his body could hold up.

In any event, Kemp was a total business move. HO was an embarrassment to the organization but for some reason the money men have issues with the idea of just cutting guys like HO when they're owed a ton of money. So we traded him for Kemp. If we don't have HO then we don't have Kemp right now. It was a move motivated by off the field considerations.

With Markakis and Swanson you ignore the business side of things. The Braves are a for profit business. The main motivation of fans is to win championships. The main motivation of the front office is to make money. Markakis and Swanson are good examples of emphasizing immediate returns at the cost of something in the future.

With Markakis, the Braves needed to put a watchable product on the field during rebuilding. If ticket sales and TV ratings dive too much, then that will reflect negatively on the front office. So we signed Markakis. He provided solid, if not great production during the rebuild. He was a known name. He made the team more watchable.

With Swanson, the front office was looking at the opening of the new stadium and needed a marketing darling. Swanson was perfect. But it's hard to market a guy in AAA. Bringing him up to the majors with great fanfare really fit the Braves immediate business needs.

These guys aren't out there flailing like idiots. They're too smart for that. They probably knew Markakis would be a bit of a drag by 2018 and that they were giving up "surplus value" by bringing up Swanson. But you have to understand that their motivations are not your motivations.
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I was 50/50 on the Kemp move with the downside being he is who he is (guy who can still hit some, but can't play defense anymore). They wanted a guy to stand in LF and do something with the bat. Handled correctly, he can still contribute a little. Didn't like the financial aspect of the deal, but I get the saving face angle due to Olivera's epic failure.

I still think a lion's share of some fans' ire toward Markakis boils down to who he replaced and not Markakis in particular. It looks like he's reached the end physically. He was miserable in September. While they probably can't unload Kemp, I can see someone taking Markakis (and some of his contract). Not a classic 4th OF because he can't play CF, but I can see him being a decent 350 AB guy in the right role with the right team.

Where I do differ is on the Swanson promotion. I get the occasional barb (and as long as they are polite, I don't mind), but I have been critical of the aggressive promotion schedule the front office has used with a bunch of guys. Some are ready (Albies), but I don't think that Swanson was. Still a work in progress and I still think he'll be at least an average big league player.

But basically, you bring out a point that seems to get lost. This is a business and a business that relies on interest from the fan base and sometimes a front office has to go to odd lengths to accomplish that. And we have to remember, it's not about the hard cores that are in here. It's about getting the average guy on the street to buy in (and buy tickets).
 
Other quotes I thought were notable.

Other GMs around the league hated drafting against us, because as one put it " we were treating it like a CFB team and doing anything they could do to get their guy to them."

Honestly, as far as it isn't very bad stuff this seems like its just part of it and a little sour grapes.
 
rico43 said:
Waters signed for $1.5 million, which was only about $100 K below his slot. Not enough money to make that kind of difference. Padres pick two ahead of him took only $1.3 M.
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Don't you remember what you would've done for a $100,000 sports car when you were 18???

That's simply the story being "reported" (no one named sources or put their names to it, it's just what they heard, kinda like Bowman and DOB - ell, like Shanks for that matter) - I didn't comment on whether I believed it one way or the other. Given the other stories we're beginning to hear about Coppy's practices you think it's out of the question? I have no clue, but will wait to see if the story has legs personally.
 
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