Official Around Baseball 2023 Thread

Russ2dollas said:
Texiara deal?
Smoltz from Detroit?
Most met trades?
Max fried for Justin upton?


People give up significant future pieces all the time.
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The Tex deal is the most overwrought thing in bravesdom but it’s the exception. On balance I wager most clubs can say they have t give away that much, because prospects are often useless.

Ask the padres.
 
Drew was a genuinely magnificent player his one year here. He got Mickey Mantle comparisons in college, and I imagine that 2004 J.D. Drew is what Mantle looked like in his prime. There was nothing he couldn't do on a baseball field, and he made everything look easy and so incredibly smooth.

Even then you could see why he annoyed so many people -- he missed some games early in the season he probably could have played in if necessary (I vaguely remember reports that Chipper read him the riot act behind the scenes at some point), he never seemed to give the slightest damn about what happened on the field and he's one of the only players I can remember who reacted to a slump by getting more passive at the plate instead of aggressively trying to swing his way out of it. But man, for all that, he really was something else. I still can't conjure up too much angst over the Wainwright trade.
 
Braves gave up Brett Butler, Rick Bahenna, and Brook Jacoby for Len Barker who was broken down when he got to ATL. By far the dumbest trade in the Braves' history. Then Waino for Drew. The sad part is they didn't really need him to win in 2004. They could've stuck a warm body in RF in 2004 and still won the division so it was unless. Then I have always hated the Tex trade due to the volume given up.
 
The Chosen One said:
Interesting thinking of how his career would have turned out had the economics of baseball not stunk during those mid 2000s years and he had stayed with us.

Did he play lights out for for the contract year in 2004. Or did playing for his home team make him enjoy playing a bit more than in stl or Philly.

Going from one baseball town like STL to ATL then another hardcore baseball fanbase in BOS.

I feel he played well with us because there was never any pressure for him to be a superstar for us. In Boston he signed that contract then had to deal with nit living up to that fanbase's expectations even though he basically was a moneyball darling at that point.
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He had a few great years in Boston and was a key part of their World Series run in 2007. He’s a very underrated player, mainly due to the fact that he was soft as baby cheeks.
 
The second Tex trade was worse than the first. Tex came with the potential for getting two first round picks which made the trade much more fair. Wren dealing him (and by extension the 2 firsts) for Kotchman was just idiotic.
 
What Ohtani is doing is obviously insane, but I can't imagine that he's not going to run out of steam at some point. On top of logging 95IP as a starting pitcher, he is also 7th in baseball in offensive PA. He's played every game. And he's a big boy who consumes a lot of energy.

Interestingly, in his MVP season, he also lit the world on fire in June, followed that with an excellent July, but was merely okay (by his standards) in August and September. His OPS is 90 points lower in the 2nd half compared to the first half.

I don't really have a larger point to this, except that I would really like to see Ronald somehow take the MLB WAR crown from him. ;)
 
striker42 said:
The second Tex trade was worse than the first. Tex came with the potential for getting two first round picks which made the trade much more fair. Wren dealing him (and by extension the 2 firsts) for Kotchman was just idiotic.
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Wasn't Bobby heavily involved in that saying he had to have an MLB ready 1B back in return?
 
[The Tex deal is the most overwrought thing in bravesdom but it’s the exception. On balance I wager most clubs can say they have t give away that much, because prospects are often useless.

Ask the padres.


People give up significant future pieces all the time.[/QUOTE]

I think you are just wrong here. I think most teams have given up impact guys in trades.

You are right that most prospects do not work out. That is why people usually trade for multiple.

But there are a lot of prospects that do turn out. Not all of them are studs.

I think the industry has gotten better and it's not very likely that you get a hall of famer in a trade. But really good players get moved all of the time. See most of the Rays trades.
 
striker42 said:
The second Tex trade was worse than the first. Tex came with the potential for getting two first round picks which made the trade much more fair. Wren dealing him (and by extension the 2 firsts) for Kotchman was just idiotic.
Click to expand...

Maybe the Iglesias trade balances out the Braves' previous trades with the Angels, but the Teixeira trade and the Simmons trade shared the quality that the Braves somehow insisted that they had to get a major league level player back at the same position in both deals (Kotchman in the Teixeira deal and Aybar in the Simmons deal). Just bad logic (especially in the Simmons deal because we were in the middle of the tear down). Didn't come close to getting value in either deal although Newcomb was highly regarded.
 
Russ2dollas said:
[The Tex deal is the most overwrought thing in bravesdom but it’s the exception. On balance I wager most clubs can say they have t give away that much, because prospects are often useless.

Ask the padres.


People give up significant future pieces all the time.
Click to expand...

I think you are just wrong here. I think most teams have given up impact guys in trades.

You are right that most prospects do not work out. That is why people usually trade for multiple.

But there are a lot of prospects that do turn out. Not all of them are studs.

I think the industry has gotten better and it's not very likely that you get a hall of famer in a trade. But really good players get moved all of the time. See most of the Rays trades.[/QUOTE]

Maybe the Braves are special to only have traded away one or two particularly relevant players in 30 years but I’d guess that there are more teams in that boat than you’d think.

The Tex trade was from surplus and to have a few contribute to a contender for a little bit of time smarted for some but its impact is overstated. The ss was probably the only regrettable piece dealt and the Braves didn’t really suffer from it too much.
 
Southcack77 said:
I think you are just wrong here. I think most teams have given up impact guys in trades.

You are right that most prospects do not work out. That is why people usually trade for multiple.

But there are a lot of prospects that do turn out. Not all of them are studs.

I think the industry has gotten better and it's not very likely that you get a hall of famer in a trade. But really good players get moved all of the time. See most of the Rays trades.
Click to expand...

Maybe the Braves are special to only have traded away one or two particularly relevant players in 30 years but IÂ’d guess that there are more teams in that boat than youÂ’d think.

The Tex trade was from surplus and to have a few contribute to a contender for a little bit of time smarted for some but its impact is overstated. The ss was probably the only regrettable piece dealt and the Braves didnÂ’t really suffer from it too much.[/QUOTE]

Braves have traded
Adam Wrainwright-45.9 career WAR
Elvis Andrus-32.9 career WAR
Charlie Morton-14.4 career WAR......granted most of this was after Pittsburgh

I do think the Braves are better than most.

Red Sox have traded Brady Anderson, Curt Schilling, Anthony Rizzo and Jeff Bagwell as prospects. That's just one team.

In the prospect game you will always be right when you say the prospect will suck. Almost all of them do. But there are really good players that are dealt as prospects and every team has had that happen.

The other variable is cost. Some teams need guys to be productive on team control b/c they have cheap ownership. Other teams can afford to eat mistakes and/or buy experience. But you can't dismiss it.

Guys traded as prospects:
Trea Turner
Trevor Bauer....for a time
Carlos Carrasco
Hanly Ramriez
David Lee
Kenny Lofton

So you are right on the point that it's not a guy every year, but impact talent does move as prospects.
 
Fried
Tatis Jr.
Alcantara
Gallen
Trea Turner
Giolito

Lots of top stars were traded as prospects.
 
Russ2dollas said:
Maybe the Braves are special to only have traded away one or two particularly relevant players in 30 years but IÂ’d guess that there are more teams in that boat than youÂ’d think.

The Tex trade was from surplus and to have a few contribute to a contender for a little bit of time smarted for some but its impact is overstated. The ss was probably the only regrettable piece dealt and the Braves didnÂ’t really suffer from it too much.
Click to expand...

Braves have traded
Adam Wrainwright-45.9 career WAR
Elvis Andrus-32.9 career WAR
Charlie Morton-14.4 career WAR......granted most of this was after Pittsburgh

I do think the Braves are better than most.

Red Sox have traded Brady Anderson, Curt Schilling, Anthony Rizzo and Jeff Bagwell as prospects. That's just one team.

In the prospect game you will always be right when you say the prospect will suck. Almost all of them do. But there are really good players that are dealt as prospects and every team has had that happen.

The other variable is cost. Some teams need guys to be productive on team control b/c they have cheap ownership. Other teams can afford to eat mistakes and/or buy experience. But you can't dismiss it.

Guys traded as prospects:
Trea Turner
Trevor Bauer....for a time
Carlos Carrasco
Hanly Ramriez
David Lee
Kenny Lofton

So you are right on the point that it's not a guy every year, but impact talent does move as prospects.[/QUOTE]

I'm just guessing that most clubs don't have many huge misses and would be similar to Braves in that it's very few big losses over 40 years.

On Braves side, I do not particularly care at all about Andrus but you can argue it was a big loss I suppose. Wouldn't say that about anyone else in that trade.
 
Russ2dollas said:
[The Tex deal is the most overwrought thing in bravesdom but it’s the exception. On balance I wager most clubs can say they have t give away that much, because prospects are often useless.

Ask the padres.


People give up significant future pieces all the time.
Click to expand...

I think you are just wrong here. I think most teams have given up impact guys in trades.

You are right that most prospects do not work out. That is why people usually trade for multiple.

But there are a lot of prospects that do turn out. Not all of them are studs.

I think the industry has gotten better and it's not very likely that you get a hall of famer in a trade. But really good players get moved all of the time. See most of the Rays trades.[/QUOTE]

Also, prospects aren't lottery tickets, where you find out after acquisition whether you got a winner or a loser. They need to be developed, and some organizations just aren't good at that. And even the ones that are good at it just may have a different philosophy than the player's original team. For example, I can see plenty of organizations where Albies doesn't make it, because they'd have gotten frustrated with trying and failing to teach him to lay off pitches around his ankles. There's even ways to mess up an all-world talent like Ronald. Just imagine the Braves had traded him to Cleveland for Trevor Bauer in 2018. We'd be watching him on the other side of the diamond today, sitting at 8 HR on the season, and everyone would be like "Glad we sold high on him".
On the flip side, some of the guys the Braves traded away may have developed into legitimate stars here, because their talents and work ethic are more aligned with the Braves' way.
 
Strike3urout said:
I think you are just wrong here. I think most teams have given up impact guys in trades.

You are right that most prospects do not work out. That is why people usually trade for multiple.

But there are a lot of prospects that do turn out. Not all of them are studs.

I think the industry has gotten better and it's not very likely that you get a hall of famer in a trade. But really good players get moved all of the time. See most of the Rays trades.
Click to expand...

Also, prospects aren't lottery tickets, where you find out after acquisition whether you got a winner or a loser. They need to be developed, and some organizations just aren't good at that. And even the ones that are good at it just may have a different philosophy than the player's original team. For example, I can see plenty of organizations where Albies doesn't make it, because they'd have gotten frustrated with trying and failing to teach him to lay off pitches around his ankles. There's even ways to mess up an all-world talent like Ronald. Just imagine the Braves had traded him to Cleveland for Trevor Bauer in 2018. We'd be watching him on the other side of the diamond today, sitting at 8 HR on the season, and everyone would be like "Glad we sold high on him".
On the flip side, some of the guys the Braves traded away may have developed into legitimate stars here, because their talents and work ethic are more aligned with the Braves' way.[/QUOTE]


The Braves have magic powers that turns lesser talent like Acuña into decent players isn't a theory I'm gonna agree with.

I might have exaggerated your point a little bit for effect.
 
Southcack77 said:
The Braves have magic powers that turns lesser talent like Acuña into decent players isn't a theory I'm gonna agree with.

I might have exaggerated your point a little bit for effect.
Click to expand...

The Braves have no magic powers. They seem to be better than most teams at developing young talent into legitimate big leaguers, but they have also whiffed on many of them over the years, especially pitchers (Newk, Touki, Folty, Bryce Wilson, etc). My point was that prospects can turn out differently depending on circumstances, regardless of talent. Just because one doesn't work out for another team doesn't mean the Braves made the right call trading him.

Or maybe I missed the irony in your post.
 
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