Okay hack away about tax income

DirkPiggler said:
You don't even have to have a college education to do it. Most of the ones I know either don't have a degree, or have one and never used it for a job. Some got the degree while they were working their way up at a less than desirable job.

The current entitlement system does more to take away the ambition of the current generation of poor than any CEO or wall street criminal has done or ever will do. It doesn't need to be eliminated, but it needs to be reformed to remove the disincentive towards work.
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No, you definitely don't need a college degree but I think its the safest way to go as long as you get the right degree. These huge companies hire right out of college to those students the perform the best in their class. Go get a free education and get a 4.0 and I guarantee that you will get a good job and get out of poverty.
 
Dalyn said:
They sold the idea to two generations that they could afford these loans and these rates, and they were full of **** and were just making money for as long as possible until it all collapsed. They destroyed a whole generation of poor people trying to climb the ladder into lower middle class by lying and stealing from them. They exploited human nature for their own gain, and a new generation is starting to foot the bill.
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It was awful what was done on both sides of the table in these situations. The blame cannot be lifted from either side though.
 
thethe said:
So is that the systems fault or is it those parents fault that don't pass down the right lessons?
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You have got to be ****ing kidding me. You call a mother injecting heroin into an eight year old not passing down the right lessons? Talk about the understatement of the year. But that's okay. It's not the mother's fault. It's the child's fault. Let them pay for it. Don't help. Hard work is what they need.
 
thethe said:
It was awful what was done on both sides of the table in these situations. The blame cannot be lifted from either side though.
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But Billy Bob didn't take the loan. His dumbass father did. Why should Billy Bob pay for it with his life? That's what you seem incapable of understanding.
 
Dalyn said:
You have got to be ****ing kidding me. You call a mother injecting heroin into an eight year old not passing down the right lessons? Talk about the understatement of the year. But that's okay. It's not the mother's fault. It's the child's fault. Let them pay for it. Don't help. Hard work is what they need.
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And just like you have responded to Dirks point there are always exceptions to the rule. How many instances do you think exist as you've outlined above? Both sides are using extreme hyperbole to get their points across and it negatively impacts arriving at a solution.
 
Dalyn said:
But Billy Bob didn't take the loan. His dumbass father did. Why should Billy Bob pay for it with his life? That's what you seem incapable of understanding.
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Billy Bob is still eligible for free schooling if he wants. Billy bob can still get a bull**** bank job and work his way up if he wants. I don't want to insult you by saying you are incapable of understanding that. I just don't think you want to.
 
I have to go, but my argument boils down to, "A person should be held accountable for their own actions. Their child or grandchild should not."
 
thethe said:
Billy Bob is still eligible for free schooling if he wants. Billy bob can still get a bull**** bank job and work his way up if he wants. I don't want to insult you by saying you are incapable of understanding that. I just don't think you want to.
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Sorry if you took that as an insult. I didn't mean it as one. I just think you have a blind spot. It's what the wealthy stealing from the top count on.
 
thethe said:
And just like you have responded to Dirks point there are always exceptions to the rule. How many instances do you think exist as you've outlined above? Both sides are using extreme hyperbole to get their points across and it negatively impacts arriving at a solution.
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It seems like the extreme cases are the only way to get people to notice. This might not happen often, but it's happening enough and LONG enough to have created a mess at the bottom that is almost impossible to get out of without help.
 
Dalyn said:
Sorry if you took that as an insult. I didn't mean it as one. I just think you have a blind spot. It's what the wealthy stealing from the top count on.
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I understand what you are saying. I just want to make sure that things are always civil between us. You're a good dude.
 
Dalyn said:
They sold the idea to two generations that they could afford these loans and these rates, and they were full of **** and were just making money for as long as possible until it all collapsed. They destroyed a whole generation of poor people trying to climb the ladder into lower middle class by lying and stealing from them. They exploited human nature for their own gain, and a new generation is starting to foot the bill.
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Sorry, but that's a talking point at best and a cop out at worst. The middle class was hit harder than the poor by the things you mentioned. Either that or we're defining the classes in different ways.

The people who are living off of entitlements weren't destroyed by the housing crisis. They weren't getting subprime loans to buy homes, nor did they lose substantial retirement accounts based on those loans.

I agree that people of the lower and middle classes have been enticed into buying things they can't afford by greedy financiers. But there have always been payday lenders, rent-to-own furniture stores, and tax return lenders who have taken advantage of the fact that poor people want nice things but can't afford them on their own. And would you not agree that lenders wouldn't be supplying these loans if there wasn't a demand for them?

It all boils down to people wanting to live above their means, and wanting the trappings of success without the effort that is normally required to get those things. Which goes back to the erosion of the work ethic, which has its roots to some degree in our entitlement culture.

If you want to talk about the rich elites doing something to totally screw the lower classes, the biggest and most damaging example is the Great Society program itself. I used to think that was a well-intentioned plan that just failed miserably. The older I get and the more I learn, I believe it was part of a plan to keep a certain segment of society in submission. The worst thing you can take from a man is hope. The second worse thing is his work ethic.
 
thethe said:
I understand what you are saying. I just want to make sure that things are always civil between us. You're a good dude.
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Yeah. Sorry about that. Any anger that bled through was directed toward the situation, not you or anyone else here.
 
Dalyn said:
I have to go, but my argument boils down to, "A person should be held accountable for their own actions. Their child or grandchild should not."
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That's a fair point, and one that I agree with wholeheartedly.

Where we differ I think is in the manner of solving the problem. I don't see that 14 year old drug addicted prostitute being helped by the current system.

Entitlements should give the people who have been kicked in the nuts by society and who haven't had positive influences a means to learn the right way to do things, in addition to financial assistance during the learning process. Blindly handing out checks does not accomplish that. All it does is perpetuate the cycle.
 
DirkPiggler said:
That's a fair point, and one that I agree with wholeheartedly.

Where we differ I think is in the manner of solving the problem. I don't see that 14 year old drug addicted prostitute being helped by the current system.

Entitlements should give the people who have been kicked in the nuts by society and who haven't had positive influences a means to learn the right way to do things, in addition to financial assistance during the learning process. Blindly handing out checks does not accomplish that. All it does is perpetuate the cycle.
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Oh, the current system sucks. It doesn't help anyone but the wealthy. That's my point. I'm not arguing for it, but against it.
 
Dalyn said:
Yeah. Sorry about that. Any anger that bled through was directed toward the situation, not you or anyone else here.
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I know. I just like to lower the intensity when it seems to rise to a point where people say things they regret. I learned my lesson from the Fergueson thread where I said some things I wish I could take back.
 
DirkPiggler said:
That's a fair point, and one that I agree with wholeheartedly.

Where we differ I think is in the manner of solving the problem. I don't see that 14 year old drug addicted prostitute being helped by the current system.

Entitlements should give the people who have been kicked in the nuts by society and who haven't had positive influences a means to learn the right way to do things, in addition to financial assistance during the learning process. Blindly handing out checks does not accomplish that. All it does is perpetuate the cycle.
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"blindly" !!
can you back that up ??
 
statistics - data -- percentages --

situations
A person receive gov assistance in Detroit is far different than a person receiving assistance in a boom state like North Dakota

Qualifications to receive assistance -- do you know them before you tell us people are "blindly" getting hand outs

How many ? But this issue like most other life issues is a little more nuanced than you seem to understand


After pages of explanation do you understand why there is assistance / safety net and would you agree this country would look like Haiti / Somalia without it?

Agree or disagree ---- why ?

How does one quantify "ambition" ???
 
57Brave said:
statistics - data -- percentages --

situations
A person receive gov assistance in Detroit is far different than a person receiving assistance in a boom state like North Dakota
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Why? Either you're poor or your not.

Qualifications to receive assistance -- do you know them before you tell us people are "blindly" getting hand outs
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I have an idea. And I see plenty of able bodied, able minded people who aren't working.

How many ? But this issue like most other life issues is a little more nuanced than you seem to understand
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I'll put my understanding of the issue up against anyone here, or anywhere else.

After pages of explanation do you understand why there is assistance / safety net and would you agree this country would look like Haiti / Somalia without it?

Agree or disagree ---- why ?
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If you'd read the rest of my posts you'd already have the answer to this. We need a safety net. We don't need that safety net to be a way of life, which it is for many recipients.

How does one quantify "ambition" ???
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I know it when I see it. It's not hard to distinguish the people who are doing things right and those who are gaming the system. Ambition alone won't get you anything, but ambition combined with a work ethic will work for anyone. Even if you don't have ambition, you can make a nice life for yourself just by having a good work ethic.

Before you ask me how to quantify "work ethic", here are examples I see every day of people who do not have one.

1. No show/ no call.
2. Taking off work for a full day for a doctor's appointment, to get your driver's license renewed, or other routine tasks that others fit into their work schedule with minimal time off.
3. Not showing up for work the day (or several days as the case may be) after payday.
4. Showing up for work under the influence of alcohol or drugs.
5. Stealing from your employer or their clients.

The sad thing is, most of these things could be taught very easily. Many people don't understand that it's not okay to do the things I listed above (which gets back to the generational poverty thing - no positive role models). I'd like to see some "how to get and keep a job" training implemented as a condition of receiving any aid.
 
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