Peraza debuts for Dodgers

thethe said:
Looks like price maybe.
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I've said this since last year, but everyone keeps telling me how crazy the idea is. Not really. Trade prospects, sign big names. It seems pretty obvious to me. I could see Price, Greinke, Cueto, Kazmir, etc. But, I think Price is the primary target and I think he would be overly thrilled to be in ATL.
 
Russ2dollas said:
i hate the money argument. B/c I'd rather have wood and Peraza than the 22 million extra would have taken to sign olivera to begin with. Or I'd rather have kept one of them and paid some of the signing bonus.

Hart's position does seem to be that his is a middle of the order hitter who we'll have for some small fraction of his true value. So the inference is that we can use that "savings" to get another bat. But if Hart is saying we can't get Cespedes/JUP/Heyward, then who is worth spending the money on?
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They won't spend on offense. Hart hates offense.
 
sturg33 said:
Right but we have to include the value we lost in Wood and Peraza. I did napking analysis that showed we lost $70M in value over the next 6 years. You can argue the merits of that number, but I don't think it's too far off.
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Well yeah, obviously I know about the value of the assets that we lost. But the point is that the the Dodgers taking on a good chunk of money owed to Olivera in this deal certainly has value too and some folks are just kind of ignoring that.

If you're just talking asset value then the cash plays a role in that it reduces the cost of one of the main assets in the deal.
 
Russ2dollas said:
i hate the money argument. B/c I'd rather have wood and Peraza than the 22 million extra would have taken to sign olivera to begin with. Or I'd rather have kept one of them and paid some of the signing bonus.

Hart's position does seem to be that his is a middle of the order hitter who we'll have for some small fraction of his true value. So the inference is that we can use that "savings" to get another bat. But if Hart is saying we can't get Cespedes/JUP/Heyward, then who is worth spending the money on?
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This is my main issue with the trade as well. I think Wood/Peraza was a clear overpay for Olivera, but it is defensible if the money saved on Olivera was used to bring in another impact bat. Instead, the money saved in 2016 was used to bring in Swisher and Bourn, and outside of Gomez there doesn't appear to be anyone worth buying in 2017.

So why take on the risk inherent with Olivera in order to save money if that money wasn't going to be used to compete? This team currently has 2 core players in Markakis and Olivera who are on the downslope of their careers. I think it would have been wise to do a better job trying to win in 2016...at least better than acquiring Swisher and Bourn just to save a few million bucks in 2017...when there won't be anyone worth buying.
 
Enscheff said:
This is my main issue with the trade as well. I think Wood/Peraza was a clear overpay for Olivera, but it is defensible if the money saved on Olivera was used to bring in another impact bat. Instead, the money saved in 2016 was used to bring in Swisher and Bourn, and outside of Gomez there doesn't appear to be anyone worth buying in 2017.

So why take on the risk inherent with Olivera in order to save money if that money wasn't going to be used to compete? This team currently has 2 core players in Markakis and Olivera who are on the downslope of their careers. I think it would have been wise to do a better job trying to win in 2016...at least better than acquiring Swisher and Bourn just to save a few million bucks in 2017...when there won't be anyone worth buying.
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Not really. We only took on about 8.5M. If we trade Maybin, it's a wash. We have plenty of financial flexibility. Our offseason has not even started. Just because Hart doesn't wanna overpay for Heyward/Jup/Cespedes doesn't mean he's not going to spend the money.
 
Chico said:
Not really. We only took on about 8.5M. If we trade Maybin, it's a wash. We have plenty of financial flexibility. Our offseason has not even started. Just because Hart doesn't wanna overpay for Heyward/Jup/Cespedes doesn't mean he's not going to spend the money.
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Then on who? The only other legit offensive option is Gordon, and I assume he wasn't mentioned as more of an oversight than as a clue he is the target. Now that Tulo was traded the only other expensive RHed bats that might be traded are Lucroy and Braun. Now that Peraza was used to get get Olivera, that leaves CB and pitching as the only trade chips to send to the Brewers, and we just saw how little offense pitching brings back in trades with the Wood trade.

The Markakis and Olivera moves (acquiring 30+ year old hitters) are moves a team makes when they are trying to compete now. Moves like trading for Bourn/Swisher to clear money for 2017 are moves made by teams trying to compete in the future.

It's a little confusing exactly what the plan is...to be less than mediocre now, and mediocre in the future?
 
Enscheff said:
Then on who? The only other legit offensive option is Gordon, and I assume he wasn't mentioned as more of an oversight than as a clue he is the target. Now that Tulo was traded the only other expensive RHed bats that might be traded are Lucroy and Braun. Now that Peraza was used to get get Olivera, that leaves CB and pitching as the only trade chips to send to the Brewers, and we just saw how little offense pitching brings back in trades with the Wood trade.

The Markakis and Olivera moves (acquiring 30+ year old hitters) are moves a team makes when they are trying to compete now. Moves like trading for Bourn/Swisher to clear money for 2017 are moves made by teams trying to compete in the future.

It's a little confusing exactly what the plan is...to be less than mediocre now, and mediocre in the future?
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I have no clue who we're going to acquire. That's what makes it interesting.
 
Enscheff said:
Then on who? The only other legit offensive option is Gordon, and I assume he wasn't mentioned as more of an oversight than as a clue he is the target. Now that Tulo was traded the only other expensive RHed bats that might be traded are Lucroy and Braun. Now that Peraza was used to get get Olivera, that leaves CB and pitching as the only trade chips to send to the Brewers, and we just saw how little offense pitching brings back in trades with the Wood trade.

The Markakis and Olivera moves (acquiring 30+ year old hitters) are moves a team makes when they are trying to compete now. Moves like trading for Bourn/Swisher to clear money for 2017 are moves made by teams trying to compete in the future.

It's a little confusing exactly what the plan is...to be less than mediocre now, and mediocre in the future?
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Surprise bats get moved every year.
 
Enscheff said:
Then on who? The only other legit offensive option is Gordon, and I assume he wasn't mentioned as more of an oversight than as a clue he is the target. Now that Tulo was traded the only other expensive RHed bats that might be traded are Lucroy and Braun. Now that Peraza was used to get get Olivera, that leaves CB and pitching as the only trade chips to send to the Brewers, and we just saw how little offense pitching brings back in trades with the Wood trade.

The Markakis and Olivera moves (acquiring 30+ year old hitters) are moves a team makes when they are trying to compete now. Moves like trading for Bourn/Swisher to clear money for 2017 are moves made by teams trying to compete in the future.

It's a little confusing exactly what the plan is...to be less than mediocre now, and mediocre in the future?
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This is pretty much my feeling. I'm still on board, but the signs they're sending are a little confusing.
 
weso1 said:
He certainly did in Cleveland. I remember how hilariously awful his Indian's teams were at hitting. They only managed one hit in game 6 of the 95 WS.
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Is that why Hart has completely ignored addressing the offense here in Atlanta. He made zero effort to get better throughout this off season and now through the deadline.
 
NinersSBChamps said:
Is that why Hart has completely ignored addressing the offense here in Atlanta. He made zero effort to get better throughout this off season and now through the deadline.
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Rome was not built in a day. When he took over he had 2 starters on offense. He's acquired 4 more and will more than likely acquire 2 more for LC and C this offseason, while stocking the pitching.
 
sturg33 said:
I'm not saying that at all.

I'm saying that knowing what I know now - I'm not making that deal. If we can't do better for Alex Wood, then I would have held onto him. And frankly, if we can't do better for Alex Wood - then the FO made a horrible mistake this offseason with all the emphasis on pitching acquisition
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I was mostly referring to the totally asinine implication you made that because no one has said the Braves Won the trade then they must have certainly lost the trade.

I don't think it was a good value trade, but if Olivera plays well then it could be a good results trade. The logic you use that we are wasting two years of Olivera applies just as well to Alex Wood as it does him.
 
chop2chip said:
I was mostly referring to the totally asinine implication you made that because no one has said the Braves Won the trade then they must have certainly lost the trade.

I don't think it was a good value trade, but if Olivera plays well then it could be a good results trade. The logic you use that we are wasting two years of Olivera applies just as well to Alex Wood as it does him.
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Agreed... someone said that non Braves people defended the trade and I asked for a link showing someone who said the Braves won the deal.

Frankly, I haven't seen ANYONE say the Braves won the deal.

Does that mean we lost the deal? No - but it's not a good sign if the best you can get is some people saying "if everything break right, it's an OK deal"

And yes - same logic applies to Wood. But Wood would be 26 when we're ready to compete. And/or, we could trade him for something more in line with our ultimate goal of 2017. Same is true with Peraza
 
sturg33 said:
Agreed... someone said that non Braves people defended the trade and I asked for a link showing someone who said the Braves won the deal.

Frankly, I haven't seen ANYONE say the Braves won the deal.

Does that mean we lost the deal? No - but it's not a good sign if the best you can get is some people saying "if everything break right, it's an OK deal"

And yes - same logic applies to Wood. But Wood would be 26 when we're ready to compete. And/or, we could trade him for something more in line with our ultimate goal of 2017. Same is true with Peraza
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And the Braves are risking holding on to wood that he becomes another instance of a Braves pitcher that flames out after 2 or 3 promising years.
 
thethe said:
And the Braves are risking holding on to wood that he becomes another instance of a Braves pitcher that flames out after 2 or 3 promising years.
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For the millionth time - I'm fine with trading Wood... but not for pennies on the dollar. There was no rush to do it. We had all the leverage. And frankly, it jut doesn't make any sense for our 2017 plans. The gamble we're taking is enormous
 
sturg33 said:
For the millionth time - I'm fine with trading Wood... but not for pennies on the dollar. There was no rush to do it. We had all the leverage. And frankly, it jut doesn't make any sense for our 2017 plans. The gamble we're taking is enormous
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And for the millionth time, "pennies on the dollar" as you characterized is your opinion.
 
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